couldn't agree more. they are, no doubt going to try and roll this out. imperitive that we establish the meme - pardon Rove and condone treason.
Posted by olaf fub at July 27, 2005 11:51 PMTreasongate is good, a definite improvement over Rovegate or Plamegate, but I kinda favor Traitorgate
It's got a better Watergate ring to it.
All of us in the blogosphere should come to some consensus as to what to call it.
We need to use Rove's tactics against him...
Audio from C&L
"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." - Bush in Greece
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/05/25.html
Only we're the only one's that are using the truth.
Posted by sans-culotte at July 28, 2005 12:43 AMIt will be a little tricky for them to finagle immunity. See, they haven't evinced any interest thus far in getting to the bottom of things.
It will be obvious to all but the most relentlessly partisan that you don't need to extend immunity to people who are willing to talk. So they first need to make some kind of token effort to interview the parties without immunity first. It's tough for me to imagine, absent a plea of the interviewees' Fifth Amendment rights, what would then justify any grant of immunity.
Also, wouldn't there be a vote on whether to grant immunity? Such a vote would hardly be private. Sure, the White House is willing to do whatever it takes to protect their own, but are the Senators--who still have seats to run for--really willing to go on the record as being in the bag for Rove? They might, but then again, they might not. And Arlen Specter used to be a prosecutor himself; he might not even be willing to play ball.
Finally, of course, they'd have to act fast. October is coming up quick, and if indictment season gets under way, it'll be much harder to sell any kind of parallel proceeding that interferes with the prosecution.
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 03:55 AM...Patrick Fitzgerald is not seeking the voyeuristic pleasure of studying and recording the details of Rove's sex life.
Thank God for that!
Uggggggh!
[fully body shiver]
Posted by muckcat at July 28, 2005 06:02 AMthe fraud and his minions went to war on manufactured evidence..i believe at this point that is obvious to any reasonable eye....
they did so at the cia's expense..they manipulated the intelligence..then blamed the cia..they have made a powerful enemy..bigger then they themselves....congressional immunity will not save this administration from its criminality and lies..it is unraveling...the only reason being ..they are finally being exposed for what they are..and what they have done...as for john roberts..he is clarence thomas with a brain..
Posted by dennis at July 28, 2005 06:19 AMF--ing Internet ate my comment.
Somebody at tpmcafe pointed out that everything that's already on the record renders immunity relatively insignificant. Walsh in Iran/Contra had to try to build a case after the perps had shot off their immunized mouths before Congress, and everything was tainted.
Fitzgerald, on the other hand, has a voluminous record to work from. So a pardon may still give these guys an out, but immunity probably won't be the difference maker it would first appear to be.
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 06:45 AMif it came to it, could fitzgerald issue indictments before the GJ reports or end the jury's term ahead of schedule? do such things ever happen? huh, law-boy?
Posted by benjoya at July 28, 2005 07:19 AMif it came to it, could fitzgerald issue indictments before the GJ reports or end the jury's term ahead of schedule? do such things ever happen?
The Rules of Criminal Procedure are silent on the issue of when the indictment happens. I'll try to remember to plow through some case law this evening to see what happens in practice. Right now, though, the day job calls.
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 07:30 AMMatt, thanks for the insight. I look forward to your update based on case law...
Posted by eriposte at July 28, 2005 08:14 AMIf Pat Roberts grants immunity to Rove, or starts to investigate Fitzgerald, couldn't that be considered Obstruction of Justice?
If not in a legal sense, it would certainly be perceived as such in the court of public opinion.
Posted by ck at July 28, 2005 08:23 AM"the fraud and his minions went to war on manufactured evidence"
So true, and the mere fact that it is so true means that some members of the GOP will do *anything* to keep this from coming out because if it does come out...my God, 1700+ Americans dead, 10,000+ maimed or injured, 25,000+ Iraqis dead, God knows how many injured, zillions and zillinos of dollars spent...if the shit comes out then the current incarnation of the GOP is absolutely fucked. So it wouldn't surprise me if Roberts and/or other GOP wingnuts do try the immunity option even if it has barely any chance of succeeding.
Posted by Romdinstler Jones at July 28, 2005 08:41 AMIf Pat Roberts grants immunity to Rove, or starts to investigate Fitzgerald, couldn't that be considered Obstruction of Justice?
It would, if Roberts weren't a member of Congress. But it's tough to imagine an uglier can of worms, from a Separation o' Powers standpoint, than a prosecutor filing charges against a sitting member of the legislative branch, where there's any semblance of a legitimate exercise of Congress's oversight function. (However phony that oversight might be.)
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 08:45 AMtrue story
walking my dog this morning ran into a guy .started talking...turns out he is retired cia...said there was no question plame was outed..and that the real story is the manufactured evidence and putting the onus on the cia...but the one thing he said that took me by surprise was the name of colin powell being in the mix of this whole affair....wouldn't surprise me in the least
Posted by dennis at July 28, 2005 09:14 AMwalking my dog this morning ran into a guy .started talking...turns out he is retired cia
Was he on the Area 51 beat? Or the orbital mind-control lasers?
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 09:35 AMdon't know what either the area 51 beat...or orbital mind control lasers are..but i do think this guy was real..he certainly didn't elaborate on his past work...it was just a conversation...he was for real i think....
Posted by dennis at July 28, 2005 10:08 AMThe color of TREASON is REPUBLICAN RED!
But, everyone knows that!
Posted by KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at July 28, 2005 10:09 AMI was just joking that your pal might be, you know, crazy. Tinfoil-hat crazy. All in good fun.
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 10:15 AMbut the one thing he said that took me by surprise was the name of colin powell being in the mix of this whole affair....wouldn't surprise me in the least
I'd hate to see the one person I had a shred of respect for in the administration get mixed up in all this. I hope he comes out clean.
Posted by CG at July 28, 2005 10:19 AMMatt...who knows maybe he was crazy as a loon...but i think not....he was very low key....when he mentioned colin powell it made me wonder...if there was one person in the first administration that would be willing to set the record straight..he might be the one...perhaps looking to regain some of the integrity he lost ....with the whole bunch of "fucking crazies" as he called them
Posted by dennis at July 28, 2005 10:24 AMOne problem with Roberts' plan to pre-empt this investigation. He can't pre-empt a civil trial. If Roberts scuttles the criminal investigation, Rove and Libby are still liable for ruining Plame's career. And the Wilson's would still have subpoena power.
I mean, face it, these guys are almost certainly going to be pardoned anyway. What they're trying to do is to scuttle the fact-finding. But scuttle it here, and we still have another way to get it.
Posted by emptywheel at July 28, 2005 10:53 AMI'd hate to see the one person I had a shred of respect for in the administration get mixed up in all this. I hope he comes out clean.
How can you respect the man after he knowingly, blatantly lied at the UN the way he did?
Posted by spencer at July 28, 2005 11:08 AMOK, I found the answer to benjoya's question. From 18 U.S.C. Section 3331(b):
The grand jury shall serve for a term of eighteen months unless an order for its discharge is entered earlier by the court upon a determination of the grand jury by majority vote that its business has been completed.
So, yeah, if Fitzgerald thought he had enough, or that he couldn't make a case, he could canvas the grand jury to see whether more than half of them thought they were finished.
Posted by Matt Davis at July 28, 2005 11:10 AMthanks, matt.
Posted by benjoya at July 28, 2005 11:17 AMSenator Pat Roberts could be repeal or impeach. Just let go after his base and expose his treachery.
This senator is not above the law, let's expose then in their own circuits. Let denounce then to their constituency.
United States v. Oliver L. North
I heard this morning that it has happen before. That is why Pat Roberts want tosabe Rove.
…………..North was indicted in March 1988 on 16 Iran/contra charges, along with Poindexter, retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Richard V. Secord and Albert Hakim in a 23-count indictment. After the cases were severed and the central conspiracy charges were dropped due to classified-information problems, North stood trial beginning in February 1989 on 12 counts. On May 4, 1989, he was found guilty of three counts, including aiding and abetting obstruction of Congress, shredding and altering official documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity from Secord. North's convictions were vacated on July 20, 1990, after the appeals court found that witnesses in his trial might have been impermissibly affected by his immunized congressional testimony……………
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_02.htm
I'm glad I don't live in Kansas anymore. Both their senators suck.
Posted by Myra Jo Bates at July 28, 2005 02:25 PMTonight on NPR, they were discussing Fitzgerald. He evidently has just about the best reputation any lawyer could conceivable have. Integrity, honest, hard working, zealous prosecutor, and honorable, were just a few words used to describe this man by several people. He works 24/7 and in this past year has missed only 2 days of being in the office. He has gotten some huge convictions of some big names, and according to one man, he is never intimidated by people in politics or power. Bush is going to have to rid himself of Fitzgerald in some manner. Be safe Fitz.
Posted by Judith at July 28, 2005 06:06 PMand fitzgerald's from brooklyn. almost makes up for norm coleman.
Posted by benjoya at July 28, 2005 06:15 PMMike, maybe you don't keep up on current events, but looks like the troops will be coming home in 2006. Just in time for the election.
Mission accomplished.
Posted by muckdog at July 28, 2005 04:36 PM
The earth must have stopped rotating, and/or great cracks have opened up under our feet. I can't be sure because I feel a little woozy right now - I agree with the Muck Filled Pus Toad on this one. But probably not for the same reasons.
Muck, are you trying to tell us that the Illegally Installed Usurper intended all along for Operation Iraqi Liberation to be a giant boondoggle based on disinformation that would allow the Repugnicants to turn America into a theocratic state? And that Putsch will be finished stripping all of our rights away by 2006? Cause that's the only mission the Cokespoon Cowboy will be able to accomplish by then...
Posted by (: Tom :) at July 29, 2005 08:56 AM