Since I was called out, I guess I will respond.
I am not saying that the cost isn't great. One of best friends is a Marine over in Iraq right now. He has seen friends die and risks his life everyday, but he wants us to stay the course over there. He thinks his job is important. It's just the difference in view between whether what they are doing is for nothing or it is very important for America. If you start with the baseline of the war being meaningless, etc. Of course the cost is way too great. Your arguement makes a lot of left sided assumptions - war for oil, etc... I don't buy those. They sound good when your villifying the other side I guess and maybe they make you feel good or something, but building up a straw man conservative that just cares about his SUV is pointless.
Anyway, the majority of guys over in Iraq and Afghanistan voted for Bush. I don't think you could say they don't know the cost of what they are doing.
Posted by Tex at August 2, 2005 04:13 AManother traitorous post.
Posted by Al at August 2, 2005 05:06 AMThis is the best rebutal you trolls have? How pathetic. And Tex, don't give us the typical "but i have a friend in iraq" bs. We're still waiting, spell out for us what's YOUR sacrific? But perhaps more important, what are you willing to do?
Posted by Jesusland Joe at August 2, 2005 05:46 AMIncidentally, Pess, we've got a non-troll commenter named "Professor." So you may need to find a new epithet for Wankero Numero Uno.
Posted by Matt Davis at August 2, 2005 06:00 AMExcellent post. Support or troops? As I pulled in to a Dirt Cheap Store one day, I noticed American flags and tables setup on the parking lot with a sign that read "Help Support our Troops." As I approached I saw tables lined up with cakes, cookies, pies and flags. Those selling these items were just one group of many that day that were trying to raise money for our troops throughout the St. Louis area. My thought, as I walked away, was how could a Nation send people to war and have to rely on bake sales for support?
Posted by Judith at August 2, 2005 06:13 AMMnwhl th lft shld nvst thrs n mntl hlth, s n cpng wth nsgnfcnc, nd lttng g f n rgmnt lrdy lst yrs g.
[Editor: ignore=off]Judith - I take you've seen the old poster that states, "It will be a great day when our schools get all the money they need and the air force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber" (I can't belive I found a copy)
Irony may be truly well be dead. Probably strangled by Rumsfeld. People on the anti-war left dreamed of the day that the sentiments of that poster were a reality. But it's to buy the soldiers their necessities for when the government overcommits and short-supplies the troops. Things like combat armor, uniforms, and other goodies that we've been told that the men and women in the National Guard have to supply out of their own pockets.
Posted by idiosynchronic at August 2, 2005 06:33 AMYou had it right until you took the left turn instead of the right at the end of the shot, Centrist.
Kerry isn't in charge - your boy George is. Message (words) are cheap. Actions are what counts, and George fails on both counts.
Doubt me? Ask anyone back from Iraq how long it took to get their unit's Humvees armored.
Posted by pessimist at August 2, 2005 06:45 AManother traitorous post.
See you in a couple of hours. Obviously you've got this page bookmarked in the FAVORITES section.
Anyway, the majority of guys over in Iraq and Afghanistan voted for Bush. I don't think you could say they don't know the cost of what they are doing.
I can since they were lied to in Iraq and weren't given the resources to finish the job in Afghanistan.
Meanwhile the left should invest theirs in mental health, as in coping with insignificance, and letting go of an argument already lost years ago.
I'm just so glad to see the autoresponder is working again. You know once those preprompted messages get backed up it can throw the whole autoresponder off.
Posted by Daryl at August 2, 2005 06:59 AMhttp://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3421
Bush and Cheney Indicted
TomFlocco.com – August 2, 2005
U.S. federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's Chicago grand jury has issued perjury and obstruction of justice indictments to the following members of the Bush Administration: President George W. Bush, Vice-President Richard Cheney, Bush Chief of Staff Andrew Card, Cheney Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, former Attorney General John Ashcroft, imprisoned New York Times reporter Judith Miller and former Senior Cheney advisor Mary Matalin.
Posted by kod at August 2, 2005 07:10 AMIt is a waste of time, a diminution of the brain cells, to respond to the lunatic left and to a post that reads like a bad hand-me-down from old Soviet propaganda. This is rancid stuff, the intellectual equivalent of cheese left in the fridge too long. Good bye, lefties, stew in your own nasty juice.
Posted by Mr Damage at August 2, 2005 07:17 AMI casted no vote for him this last election. Just the first one.
What was it about a lifetime of incompetence and corruption that so impressed you in 2000?
What was it about four years of incompetence and corruption that turned you off in 2004?
Posted by Repack Rider at August 2, 2005 07:21 AMANYONE WHO SUPPORTS THIS WAR IS A TRAITOR TO AMERICA AND MY ENEMY!
Posted by vietvet at August 2, 2005 07:31 AMWe have a country that has lost its values. That doesn’t know right from wrong. A country that believes its alright to be lied into a war or doesn’t really care that its been lied to. A sick tired resigned country that has abandoned real values of community, tolerance and hope for the values of division, intolerance and despair. A country that believes that the ends justify the means and might makes right and what can you do anyway. A country that has given up on it self – a country that doesn’t care about its health, education, environment, constitution, democracy or its future. A country that just wants to be numb and fat and asleep.
Posted by dag at August 2, 2005 07:58 AMBAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - The U.S. military said Tuesday that six Marines were killed in action in western Iraq, pushing the death toll for Americans since the start of the war past 1,800.
* * *
A seventh Marine was killed Monday by a car bomb in Hit, 50 miles southeast of Haditha in the volatile Euphrates River valley.
Another milestone. The American people have been put to sleep. This won't even make a blip on the evening news.
Posted by redstater at August 2, 2005 07:58 AMRR>>What was it about a lifetime of incompetence
Yep, thats why I didn't vote for Gore. That guy was such a tool.
Bush on the other hand...
His lack of doing jack shit for 4 years pretty much did it for me.
What about the lack of doing jack shit for the previous fifty years? Why didn't that factor into your equation?
Posted by Repack Rider at August 2, 2005 08:26 AMWhen the "Commander in Chief" has never sacrificed anything in his entire life, it's pretty hard to expect anyone else to make a sacrifice on his behalf. Bush has set a bad example for the rest of the country. He's a spoiled rotten aristocrat who has gotten everything he's ever wanted in life simply because his last name is "Bush."
Posted by ann at August 2, 2005 08:28 AMGlad to see anon thinks the sacrifices being made by our troops in Iraq are equivilant to unfortunate traffic accidents.
Posted by muckcat at August 2, 2005 08:36 AMWhen will the insanity stop! Why is no one reporting this!!!?? Does no one care!? The government has to immediately recall all vehicles and make people walk! MY GOD IT'S THE MORAL THING TO DO!
Let's compare: Car accidents--people get hurt and killed. People also get where they're going. Iraq--people get hurt and killed. People also get. . .hurt and killed.
Posted by Matt Davis at August 2, 2005 08:42 AMclinton was first in his class even though his grandpa wasn't on the board of trustees
Posted by at August 2, 2005 08:48 AMCentrist,
What made Bush appeal more to you than Gore?
Just interested. Was it his connection to the 'tainted' Clinton administration?
Posted by muckcat at August 2, 2005 08:54 AMThis argument only holds water for folks who already hate Bush. I find it odd that folks here seem to be cheering for the US, England and Australia to lose more troops and civilians to terrorism and war. I find it odd that folks here are cheering for an economic downturn day after day.
Yet, the people in the US, England and Australia have overwhelmingly re-elected our leaders. Most of us are hoping for Iraq to become a stable democracy in the Middle East. Most of us are hoping that the economic upswing continues.
I think the bottom line is that conservative people tend to be optimists; while liberal people tend to be, well, pessimists.
Posted by muckdog at August 2, 2005 09:05 AMCentrist reminds me of an anti-semite who claims they are not anti-semetic, they simply 'hate Jews.' Centrists is not 'centrist' by any possible definition of the word; he is a reactionary stooge!
Posted by at August 2, 2005 09:09 AMWell MoronDog your hero has already turned Iraq over to the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq! Bang up job there. Iran - Iraq relations are growing stronger every day! Democracy, er I mean Shiite Fundamentalism, is taking hold! Shariah will be a source of law in the country.
Posted by MD is not Smart at August 2, 2005 09:15 AMCentrist, you can't win a debate by always pulling the Clinton card. I was talking about Bush, not comparing him to anyone else. And I have no double standard.
As for who I voted for, in 2000 I voted for Nader (because Lieberman is such a total wimpy sell out) and in 2004 I voted for Kerry because I saw the debates and recognized what a total moron Bush really is. I don't vote simply by party line, I vote for the candidate who most represents my beliefs and values.
Posted by Ann at August 2, 2005 09:15 AMMuckdog and the like traitors - you all should be in Iraq you scum chickenhawks!
Posted by vietvet at August 2, 2005 09:20 AMI am not sure where your post wants to end up: Class Warfare or Class Envy? I am not rich but I am not poor either. I spent twenty years in the USAF being poor started a second career that I actually get paid a decent wage. Nobody gave me anything and I paid my own way through college (with some veteran benefits support). Trust me Uncle Sam didn’t even pay half of what it cost me to gain a BS degree. I earned the things I have today through my sacrifice and hard work, don’t even try to cheapen that or take that away from me.
Having served MY time in the service I want you all to know that nobody cares about the military until there are bullets flying and people dying. Pay raises are small and in some cases counter productive. I once got a 3% raise that put me into the next tax bracket, which resulted in a net loss of about $15. When I say nobody care about the military I am talking about all stripes of the political spectrum. I will admit that under Reagan things were pretty good for a while, but after the wall fell, so did military support.
For those that feel they have to use the military as some political football that can be picked up and played with just friggin stop. Those of you that have never served could not possibly understand what it is like to serve this country in uniform. Those of you who are right whom think that we can be bought off with bonuses and pay raises also do not understand. Those on the left who think they have a more worldly view and are smarter than the average grunt, think again. The military doesn’t recruit dumb people, nor do they go looking for cannon fodder. And the myth that only poor underclass minorities join the service is so much Hollywood fiction so don’t even go there.
I served under four Presidents (Carter-Clinton) and I don’t think any of them where hell bent on world domination or used the military as some sort of global chess game. I also don’t think that President Bush takes the military lightly, only those that have some running count on the war dead take these lightly. Your tallies cheapen the 37th, 1205th, and 1st casualty of this war. Quit acting like you have some personal sacrifice with respect to theirs. Trust me that you would have nothing in common with the dead veterans except that you reside in the same country. If you truly want to honor them, say a silent prayer for them but spare me the false drama.
Posted by Cyber Sarge at August 2, 2005 09:29 AMSo Cyber Sarge, instead of demanding the withdraw of troops from an illegal and immoral war, we should say a silent prayer to a magical invisible sky fairy and that will make it all better, eh?
Posted by Class Warfare at August 2, 2005 09:33 AMCentrist, er Fascist, you put the KKK tatoo there yourself, smuck. A centrist would you know agree with left positions as well something you have never, ever done. You are a shill for the republicans and are simply lying or deluding youself if you claim other wise.
Posted by at August 2, 2005 09:39 AMSome of us, unlike your illiterate ass, can read. Voting for a conservative democrat does not make you a centrist, moron.
Posted by at August 2, 2005 09:50 AMCyber Sarge, I served. This war is wrong and bush cares nothing about our troops. Bush lied us into this war which I consider to be a WAR CRIME! Support the troops - don't misuse them for politics as bush has.
Posted by vietvet at August 2, 2005 10:01 AM"So Cyber Sarge, instead of demanding the withdraw of troops from an illegal and immoral war, we should say a silent prayer to a magical invisible sky fairy and that will make it all better, eh?"
What ever floats your boat. What part of this particular war is "illegal"? Who puts the legal seal on a conflict? Since that mantra garnered so many votes in the last election please play that tune again in 2006. (see my third paragraph)
"This war is wrong and bush cares nothing about our troops. Bush lied us into this war which I consider to be a WAR CRIME! Support the troops - don't misuse them for politics as bush has." The operative word phrase is "I consider' because most people do not consider that. There is no evidence that Bush wasn’t acting on what was considered valid intelligence when he invaded Iraq. Spare me the left spin on the DSM because I read them and I don’t see what the left sees. Where did you hear that Bush doesn’t care about the troops? Did you hear equate them to the Nazi, Pol Pot, or Soviet Gulag? Did he equate their actions to Saddam’s regime? No these are words from the left that cares so much for troops that they go out of their way to malign them. So whom is hurting the troops and using them as political pawns?
Posted by Cyber Sarge at August 2, 2005 11:45 AMAnd Tex, don't give us the typical "but i have a friend in iraq" bs. We're still waiting, spell out for us what's YOUR sacrific? But perhaps more important, what are you willing to do?
joe,
You're right. I don't personally sacrifice very much for this war at all. I don't think that means I should demand the troops come home. I'm sure there are several things you think are important and support that require the sacrifice of others with little sacrifice on your part. Should the poor in the country have no voice in how tax money is spent since they contribute little or no money into the system? I think that this example is just as ridiculous as saying that I can't believe it is important for the US to have a military presence somewhere if I don't serve myself.
Tex
Posted by Tex at August 2, 2005 11:48 AMDid you hear equate them to the Nazi, Pol Pot, or Soviet Gulag? Did he equate their actions to Saddam’s regime? No these are words from the left that cares so much for troops that they go out of their way to malign them.
Spare us the rightwing hack interpretation of Durbin's comments.
Are you proud of the things that went on at Abu Ghraib Cyber Sarge? Is that the way you were trained to behave when you served?
Posted by muckcat at August 2, 2005 11:49 AM
Cyber Sarge - I cry for you and my country - you are so wrong. Obviously you have never been to war. I have. Bush has lied to all of us. Only a fool would think he hasn't.
demagogue
/'de-m&-"gäg/:
I'm sure there are several things you think are important and support that require the sacrifice of others with little sacrifice on your part. Should the poor in the country have no voice in how tax money is spent since they contribute little or no money into the system?
Posted by merriam webster at August 2, 2005 12:21 PMShould the poor in the country have no voice in how tax money is spent since they contribute little or no money into the system?
Hey, an actual argument!
I don't think anybody is denying you, or anyone else, a "voice" on the question of the war. We are, however, going to have to insist that when you use that voice to deride all of us who opposed, and continue to oppose, this war as unAmerican, we will fight back. Period.
It's clear that this war does not stack up well when its defenders try to defend it on the merits. So I understand, I really do, the necessity to smear those of us who think we shouldn't have fought it--after all, there's not much of a shining success for your side to point to. All you've got is accusations.
But that's your problem, guys. We opposed the war beforehand, and still do. We were right both times. The question you guys need to start asking yourselves is whether you want to persist in being wrong, or to be adults, admit error, and start fixing this colossal fuckup by demanding that our leaders change course.
Posted by dj moonbat at August 2, 2005 12:55 PM
People like Cyber Sarge, mucky, and the rest love bush more than they love America. They will never admit that bush was wrong or that he lied. They know bush lied and the war is a disaster but they are so macho and have invested their manhood in bush that they cannot face the truth. I put my country over party and demigod. These guys have sold their souls to bush and his lies.
I pity them.
Who did I smear and when? Don't lump me in with the wackos that post on here because I think we should stay in Iraq until it's more stable. I think you have a right to say we shouldn't be in this war and we need to bring the troops home. I don't think it's an unamerican view as some on the right might argue. I just don't think my only options this weekend are either attending an antiwar rally or enlisting in the armed forces.
Vietvet, Not sure how can you look at the facts and conclude that Bush lied and started a war on purpose. How about you walk me through the process given your vast combat experience and I just a lowly retired zoomie. Tell me the what, why and how Bush concocted this vast conspiracy to gain ____? Fill in the blank. And brother don’t cry for your country, cry for all those other ones who want to appease terrorists so that they will be killed last. Lastly don’t cry for me I have my shit together and don’t need any sympathy (and I never asked for any).
Posted by Cyber Sarge at August 2, 2005 01:25 PMYou know who is also a centrist? Christopher Hitchens he supported the left for a while then he became an arch conservative. That makes him a Centrist just like our buddy Fascist, er Centrist.
Posted by Real Centrist at August 2, 2005 01:45 PMCyber Sarge - you sound intelligent. So how and why are you allowing bush to make a fool out of you?
Posted by vietvet at August 2, 2005 01:45 PMJust who the fuck scripted this fucking nightmare? The country is toast thanks to the brilliant leadership of King George, the man with the fecal touch.
Posted by Vinnie at August 2, 2005 01:47 PMI'm not sure the discussion should center around should we be there or shouldn't we be there. We are there. Whether you believe Bush lied or not doesn't matter, either. He's a two-termer and he's in office until January 2009.
The discussion now is the best way to help the Iraqi people transition to a democracy, train the Iraqi's to maintain their own peace, and to get our folks out of there.
As candidates in 2004, both Bush and Kerry stressed this during the campaign, , and that's the direction we're headed.
Posted by muckdog at August 2, 2005 02:30 PMVietvet, some facts give me some facts. Not hyperbole, some facts to prove your position. You sound like somebody who lets others do their thinking for them. Did you ever ask yourself the question why Bush would have lied to get us into a ground war in Iraq? What were his motives? He already had money and he is the President of the most powerful country in the world. Do you truly believe that he is bent on world domination and creating a global empire? If you believe those conspiracy theories, I suggest putting down the Kool Aid and drinking a beer instead.
Posted by Cyber Sarge at August 2, 2005 02:41 PMMuckdog - you are not facing reality. The reality is we lost this war and guess who won? Iran - that's who. This bush is such a fuck up that now Iran has a fundamentalist ally in Iraq. Democracy? forget it - bush and his thugs never cared about democracy and guess what? Its not gonna happen in Iraq. So lets discuss but mucky you are in a fantacyland. Lets discuss how we managed to create another religious fundy country in the ME that is allied with Iran and how we can negotiate (not invade!) with them with the help of (oh my god!) France! and our other European allies and try to prevent a nuclear war in the ME. Mucky your boys have put us in a world of shit. The only way to deal with it is to face reality but your last post tells me you are having a hard time coming to grips with the facts.
Posted by dag at August 2, 2005 02:42 PMCyber Sarge - you are watching tooooo much Fox news. All the facts are out there. I won't do your research for you but will point you in the right direction. Do a search on Bush Lies - that will give you a wealth of facts. More specific? try Downing Street Memo - that should get you started. enjoy!
Posted by vietvet at August 2, 2005 02:52 PMWhether you believe Bush lied or not doesn't matter, either.
Let me get this straight, muck.....we shouldn't worry our pretty little heads about whether Bush lied or not? Yes, he's a two-termer and that is unfortunate. But let's not forget, it is a long time until 1/2009. Plenty of time for impeachment.
Posted by ann at August 2, 2005 03:19 PMUh, sarge, you might want to check out the Project for a New American Century, okay? Because they certainly are bent on world domination, it's in their manifesto, on the internet for all to see. And most of these guys in the bush admin have signed on. President Cheney is the ringleader. Young Georgie, however, he's just a sadist who likes his power. He's along for the torture, and the JeffyLube action.
And dag's right, mucky, Iran won this war. Our very presence is the instability in Iraq and nothing our troops can do will change that dynamic. But I'm glad to see that you agree with Kerry, even if the rest of us don't.
Posted by iamcoyote at August 2, 2005 03:19 PMCyber Sarge,
Project much, wow you hit it all in that paragraph there.
I am mainly responding to this comment.
Do you truly believe that he is bent on world domination and creating a global empire? If you believe those conspiracy theories, I suggest putting down the Kool Aid and drinking a beer instead.
Anyway if you are as stupid as your last comment revealed you to be you have obviously never heard of PNAC . Either that or if you think that this is a conspiracy then you need to check with Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, John Bolton and other significant PNACers who wrote and are the founders of this ideology. Here's one page and and another written in 1997 that are especially important.... Statement of principles and a letter to Clinton about Iraq. Note the all names, note the philosophy. Don't just thoroughly read the links I provided to the PNAC website especially those written prior to 2000. Then Google it further,and then read those links. Many if not all of those PNAC neocon ideologues are now running the nation's foreign policy and/or ran the Iraq WAR. After you have read all that and looked to see what these people believe and how to best achieve it, then compare it to what they have done over the past 4 years. Then come back here and talk. Yes, come back here and tell us we are foolish to believe that the people running our country's foreign policy position have no goal of global world dominance through military might.
Most of these letters and statments are signed (and I just picked out the notable names) Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Eliot Abrams, Don Rumsfeld,Richard Armitage, Paul Wolfowitz,Jeb Bush, Lewis Libby...etc, etc...
Please get your head out of your butt or at minimum click off the remote from Faux News because it's all hidden right in plain sight. All you have to do it look for it.
Posted by at August 2, 2005 03:35 PMOoops, that last comment was mine and I see iamcoyote (great minds and all that) already alluded to the PNAC connection. Never hurts to have Cyber Sarge or other Bush Kool aide Drunks open their eyes and hopefully sober up to reality by seeing this twice.
Posted by emal at August 2, 2005 03:39 PMWow I can see the conspiracy oozing from the site. What's this? They want to “promote American global leadership.” How sinister! Uh oh in the principles statement the red meat really show! They want to strengthen national defense, ties with other democracies, promote political and economic freedom, and extend American values across the globe! I can see why someone would be scared with the thought of spreading democracy and freedom! I better call the FBI and hand these name over as conspirators! Just because you don’t agree with their politics doesn’t make them an evil organization bent on domination.
That is what I am talking about. You read the info at that site and see world domination. Notice that all the principles have their names out there in the open. Also their main action seems to be sending letters to Congress that supports their mission statement. If I did not know better I would say they are like any other 501c3 out there such as Move On. As a matter of fact they are both 501c3 organization, which means they are registered for that very purpose (lobbying for a cause). They have bios on all the leaders and you can contact them via email. Hardly sound like a secretive organization bent on world domination. Now please put down the Kool Aid and come back to reality.
Peace.
Well Cyber Sarge is obviously illiterate if that is what he got out of the PNAC site.
Posted by at August 2, 2005 04:25 PMNot only are you blind but you have a serious reading comprehension and reality deficit. Yes 300 billion dollars and counting, 1806 lives and counting, Iran or Syria next...yup keep living in your "peaceful" American Supremacy through military might dream fantasy even though Iraq was NOT a threat.
Even deluded people such as yourself refuse to face reality when it's right in plain sight. I am not disagreeing with you if you agree with their philosophy(you obviously endorse it), I am stating that you state the neoCONs don't have that philosophy. They do, just look at what these maniacs have done in 4 years, exactly what they asked Clinton to do back in 1997...USe military might to get rid of HUssein. Did I also mention SAdddam Hussein was NOT a threat to the US and that Condi and Powell said as such early on as noted here. But you refuse to see the disconnect and Condi and Powell were right and the neocons just wanted to display their global world dominance through military might ideology by hyping the threat. The HYPED the threat in order to be able to use their preemptive War doctrine or the Bush Doctrine which is based on PNAC ideology. You have shown what you are all about here but I never figured you were anything but what you presented yourself as....a true Bush believer and a neoCON.
Peace to you too.
Posted by emal at August 2, 2005 04:38 PM"obviously illiterate" Great comeback. I only wish I could see things your way but alas I am stuck in this fantasy world where facts speak louder than hype. If all you have is left wing blog sites to carry your argument and no hard news sources I probably will never see it your way. You would think that 60 minutes would do a piece on such a sinister group. Maybe have Lucy Ramirez drop off some incriminating evidence to Dan Rather.
Posted by Cyber Sarge at August 2, 2005 04:41 PMOne other point, I never said PNAC was a secret organization. Far from it. I said it was hiding in plain sight...if only people knew or paid any attention to it...there is a big difference.
Posted by emal at August 2, 2005 04:45 PMC'mon, Sarge. Give these folks a break. They ignore the facts, so they don't have much to work with. They need polls to keep 'em going. You know: "How do you feel" about this or that. They don't need no stinkin' facts here, Sarge.
Posted by muckdog at August 2, 2005 04:47 PMWell that's a wrap, now that puppyboy weighs in with its 2 cents of conclusive factual opinion in defense of the "Sarge". Ooooh, my hero puppyboy says dreamily.
Posted by at August 2, 2005 04:54 PMGlad to see anon thinks the sacrifices being made by our troops in Iraq are equivilant to unfortunate traffic accidents. Posted by muckcat
Drunk driver at the helm?
I find it odd that folks here seem to be cheering for the US, England and Australia to lose more troops and civilians to terrorism and war. I find it odd that folks here are cheering for an economic downturn day after day. Posted by muckdog
Of course you find it "odd" since no Democrat is. Republicans thrive on terror though: It was their candidate's mail selling point.
What part of this particular war is "illegal"? Who puts the legal seal on a conflict? ... Posted by Cyber Sarge
Without UN sanctioning the war, it became a war of aggression, hence illegal. Also, the Bush violations of the Geneva Conventions at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and other places are in direct violation of the rules of war; and since those are signed treaties, the American Constitution.
alas I am stuck in this fantasy world where facts speak louder than hype Posted by Cyber Sarge
Are you referring to the hype used to sell the war to the American public or simply ignoring the fact that the war is a costly disaster?
Cyber sarge,
You've got to be kidding but sadly I know you aren't. I present you with webbased facts and links about PNAC and you question if it is a legitimate organization because it isn't on 60 Minutes....Wow, just plain Wow!!!!!
YOu come here without even knowing of the organization and think you are the one with all the knowledge and facts. Then you cry about not having facts and conspiracy theories and I present you with links with facts and you do nothing to refute them except to ridicule and say they aren't legitimate. Wow!!!
I tell you what you Google the names William Kristol and Robert Kagan and see what their bios say about them. They are the founders of the PNAC organization. Then email Kristol over at magazine that he is the editor of...The Weekly Standard and ask him if his PNAC organization is legit. Tell him you think the organization is a farce or a fake because it isn't mentioned in the mainstream liberal media. Let us all know what he says.
Posted by emal at August 2, 2005 05:37 PMSarge, what does the stupid awol story have to do with PNAC? Either you didn't read the PNAC manifesto and take note of the list of signatures (I'm sure you'll recognize most of the names as current admin officials), you didn't understand what it suggests our foreign policy should be like, or you did understand and think it's all okely dokely to you. It must be the latter since you are here defending that policy every other day.
We're looking at the same documents, the same players - albeit this time with a better, more corrupt game plan - and all you see are stars and bars, go America, oorah! When I read the PNAC plan, I say "they fucked it up badly the first time around, why should they have a second chance at it?"
Because you know what? This may surprise you, but I have always believed that we needed a solid policy in the middle east, and that we were in a good position globally to exert leadership in world affairs. The US got that position by default after the fall of the USSR as a Super Power. It was handed to us on a silver platter. We were it, we were the shit. And after 9-11, my god, we had carte blanche to use worldwide support to go after this small group of disruptors who declared war on progress, so they could create their Caliphate or whatever.
You're a military guy, let me ask you: Is this the way you would have gone about securing America's interests vis-a-vis oil and our future energy needs? Shouldn't we have been smarter than what we're looking at now? Iraq, and with it, the middle east, is gone for us, bush lost it for us.
Not only did this group of "visionaries" lose the Iraq war, they lost any chance we could be viewed as honest brokers in the region; they showed the entire world the limits of our military capabilities; they showed the limits of our intelligence sphere of knowlege; they showed our economic weaknesses, not to mention domestic vulnerabilities, etc. And they asked China to foot the bill, so we're in hock for decades.
Doesn't this piss you off? Does scoring a few imagined points in a comment thread mean more to you than the total fuckup that is bushco?
Y'know, whatever. **throws down microphone**
Posted by iamcoyote at August 2, 2005 05:52 PMHaving served MY time in the service I want you all to know that nobody cares about the military until there are bullets flying and people dying.
Too bad you feel that way. Since you're new, you probably missed those here from the left calling for increased funding for veterans, better treatment of military spouses left in the states and fair treatment for those returning from the war. The right and center is always silent about this stuff, or talks about how the tax cuts to the wealthy are growing the economy or some other bullshit not representative of anything factual.
Those of you that have never served could not possibly understand what it is like to serve this country in uniform. Those of you who are right whom think that we can be bought off with bonuses and pay raises also do not understand.
Hey, it cons a mess of people who can't get a job into joining. Worked pretty good until Rummy got aholt on things.
Those on the left who think they have a more worldly view and are smarter than the average grunt, think again.
Naw. We're not bright at all. That's why every major weapons system has to have them smarty-pants academic liberals to bring the death toys to fruition.
And, while we're on the subject, wasn't that Lindsay England of Abu Ghraib fame (you know, of Abu Ghraib fame with soldiers having anal sex with teenage boys for punishment) mentally retarded...I'm sorry, developmentally delayed?
The military doesn’t recruit dumb people, nor do they go looking for cannon fodder. And the myth that only poor underclass minorities join the service is so much Hollywood fiction so don’t even go there.
Gosh. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about recruiters getting fake H.S. diplomas for those enlisting, hiding criminal records, and offering citizenship to poor Guatemalans to join-up.
I served under four Presidents (Carter-Clinton) and I don’t think any of them where hell bent on world domination or used the military as some sort of global chess game.
Seems we're talking about Bushco here. Of course, like those who served at some time you think you have some special privelege to flap your jaws and spew bullshit like it's Manna from Heaven whilst others must listen to your crap with awed reverence. You do not have this privilege.
When it comes to you blathering bullshit about the special rights your "service" gives you (and indeed, there are many here who served and don't use it as a cudgel) I must remind you that you apparently didn't serve in this Iraq war. So, I tend to listen to veterans who have returned instead of wannabes. They say it's pretty fucked-up over there. Not enough troops, still undersupplied, the food provided is often past it's expiration date, and Rummy is the biggest idiot on the face of the earth. The truth is out there, but you are not the truth.
Muckdog, people like you are the problem. You take our words and twist them into some perverted meaning all your own. I am referring to your first post.
Damage, thank you for leaving this Blog. However, you and I know that you will be back to post further lies. It's in your nature.
Dag, they don't want to be seen as 'girlie men'.
Mr. Macho is their idol, and right or wrong never enters into the equation.
Cyber Sarge, evidently you haven't heard of the New World Order. What in the hell do you suppose that means? Their goal is to take over and control the world's most valuable resources. It is a world dominated by American military power and American control over all strategic raw materials. Do some research. Don't discuss things you do not understand or don't know.
Posted by Judith at August 2, 2005 07:59 PM Tex says; war for oil, etc... I don't buy those.
You should it has already began!
Iraq: The carve-up begins (UK) Thursday 23 June 2005
As the costs of the Iraq occupation spiral, British and American oil companies meet in secret next week to carve up the country's oil reserves for themselves. Tom Burgis reports
(http://www.thelondonline.co.uk/theline/article.php?articleID=437 )
wow, not stupid...
here is another interesting story about the war from an equally reliable source.
CYBER SARGE - MUCKDOG AND THE REST OF YOU TRAITORS - 21 TROOPS KILLED OVER THE LAST 2 DAYS - ALL 1800 PLUS BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS YOU TRAITORS!
Posted by jj at August 3, 2005 07:26 AMNow, now jj. You know war is hell and we are bringing democracy to the towelheads.
Posted by Dubya at August 3, 2005 07:35 AMSay what you will about "the left", trolls (god I couldn't stomach more than a few of those comments), but at least progressives han honestly look in the mirror and claim that we still stand for something, even if it's something you deem socialist...There was a time in my life when I was prepared to vote for some moderate Republicans, even considering a vote for McCain over Gore in 2000 if it had happened, but I sure am glad I didn't. The party of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and "accountability" has transformed into the party of record debt, massive government expansion (see Homeland Security Department, which is, incidentally, still blowing money on products that don't work), and a complete inability to regulate those who would steal my tax money to fund their pet projects and political action committees. The fact that Tom "I Never Heard of No Jack Abramoff" DeLay is the hero of the right confirms that there truly is no shred of integrity left on the right. If you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you think it's OK for the CEO of your company to let his employees imbezzle from the company, spend money like drunken sailors and run up the expense account (foreign debt) before taking FIVE WEEKS OF VACATION, then I truly have given the GOP too much credit for too many years...someday you'll realize what an opportunity you've squandered by selling your morals to the highest bidder...
Posted by the Mantis at August 3, 2005 12:34 PMBush doesn't deserve assasination, he deserves a nice sleeping bag and some rubber hoses. Goddamn NeoCon Conservative Confederate Contracting Conman, go take a vacation. Start the draft, we need the Pros to get this job done.
Posted by Professional Progressive at August 3, 2005 11:10 PM