That sounds like one of Rush's fake commercials.

Centrist,
Of course, blame someone else, never the people who put the policy in place. If you don't want stuff like this to come out:DON'T DO IT.

ignorance is bliss. hence mine and my president's serenity. may the aclu disappear when they're done bailing out rush.

Centerist-I call bullshit.

This democracy of ours(assuming you still care anything about it) works on transparancy.

If tax money was involved in making some neo-con jerk-off snuff child porn, then that needs to come out. Shine the light and watch the cockroaches run hither.Untill they see it, the food units will not believe it. Therefore it must be seen.

Anybody who thinks this should be buried is a traitor to our Democratic Republic. No room for manuver.

You dont like the invietable riots and bad publicity-here's a thought. Lets quit doing this profane ass shit. And if you whip out that tired-ass bad-apples meme, then you sir are a complete moron-usefull idiot-tool.

Centerist indeed.

Centrist, the only people who don't know what's in those videos and pictures are the US public, so trying to project potential deaths is pretty stupid. But your glee at the thought of it is pretty disturbing. The rest of the world has gotten first hand accounts from the survivors of our new, improved torture and rape rooms, they don't need pictures to be pissed at us. And really, what does Soros have to do with Abu Ghraib videos? Yet again, you're mixing your right-wing smears and showing your complete and utter ignorance.

The rest of the world knows about these photos. We as a society should come to grips with the reality that we have now become torturers.

Short version of the administration's argument on the 30th;

"There were war crimes committed here and that makes the Bush Administration look bad Your Honor."

Centrist, why do you have so little faith in America? Of course America would never do anything that, when photographed/taped, would cause rioting. 'Cause America is perfect an' shit.

Seriously folks. Do you need more pictures to get the point across. Everyone knows what kind of shit has been going on.

No, everyone does not know. But even if everyone did, that wouldn't excuse a deliberate attempt to keep it under wraps. If this is an example of the ethics guiding "centrists" around this country, may God help us all, because we'll need it.

Iamcoyote: “The rest of the world has gotten first hand accounts from the survivors of our new, improved torture and rape rooms, they don't need pictures to be pissed at us.” I know you can’t possibly mean that statement. Please point out the “survivors” of our new and improved torture and rape rooms. That is so much left wing bullshit it is not even funny. Do you work for Teddy Kennedy or just quote him? If you think that a few yahoos (who are now in prison) represent the military then I pity your world.

Gosh, I thought that first Centrist post was a parody. But Centrist realy means it! Centrist seems to think that soldiers losing it on battlefield and committing war crimes against fellow combatants is the same as torturing helpless kids in prison.. maybe to make relative talk (one of the tacices Saddam used when he was dictator). Centrist doesn't seem to understand that fighting a conventional military war is different than fighting a nonconventional war against terrorists who depend on the sympathies of populations in many nations. Centrist doesn't seem to understand that there is evidence that high officials in the US were ilegally protected from the investigation into this. Centrist doesn't seem to understand that the US demonstrating that it will vigorously investigate and prosecute all of those resposnsible for war crimes committed against prisoners in Iraq is critical to winning the war on terror.

But... what Centrist just posted was so stupid, bigoted and needelessly provocative, perhaps it is just another parody post, and we should all laugh grimly -or wince- the tasteless black humor and move on. Who knows?

Ahh, come on everyone, take it easy on Centrist.

He is obviously one of those people who believes that we were attacked by the Iraqis on 9/11 and since 9/11 changed everything, the Iraqis are just getting what they deserve, I mean it is obvious that the United States can not do anything wrong, and if we did, well we can't do anything wrong you know and and we have been torturing people like forever so like what is the big deal, and and it might lead to some deaths in a war zone.

I mean I am sure that we could send Centrist to Iraq should we release these pictures and stuff and he could walk the streets of Baghdad and Fallujah looking at the corpses of people and say, "You see this one here, this is the result of the Abu Gharib pictures. Yep, and it is all the ACLU's fault. Those people on Left Coaster they should have listened to me."

Yep. it is simple as that, I tell ya, so cut Centrist a little slack please.

TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB. . The pictures that were published last years are the less damaging. Read the account of women. who were at Abu Ghtaib.
http://bitterfact.tripod.com/iraq/torture_facts2.html

If you think that a few yahoos (who are now in prison) represent the military then I pity your world. Posted by Cyber Sarge
If you are foolish enough to believe that a couple of underlings were responsible, than you are a fool. The people who authorized this, up and down the chain of command, should and must be held accoutable. Raping children is not the American I believe in, although it seems to be yours. That includes the legal enablers of this policy: Abu Gonzales, and John Yoo.
People who thumb their noses at the law and make apologies for war criminals are no better than the swine they defend.

He is obviously one of those people who believes that we were attacked by the Iraqis on 9/11 and since 9/11 changed everything

Not at all. Excuse me if I actually speak the blunt truth instead of hiding behind the daily fake outrage. (The year 2056 and the Democratic party just found new photos of Abu Grab...tonight at 10 on CNN.)
My sarcasm is really how you libs are coming off to the rest of us level headed folks. You just can't see it.

losing it on battlefield and committing war crimes against fellow combatants is the same as torturing helpless kids in prison

Losing it on the battlefield? Wrong!! During WWII, prisoners that were taken during the battle were quickly tortured for intel. Then depending on how close to the front lines they were, the prisoners were either shot in the back of the head or their throat was cut. That was the American way back then and no one cared.

Helpless kids huh? You're a fool. Don't reproduce please.

Centrist just posted was so stupid, bigoted and needelessly provocative

Not to mention 100% true. Prove me wrong on anything. I'm waiting.

sarge, it's really hard for anyone to take you seriously when you just blurt out "Ted Kennedy" like a cuckoo clock at noon. In case you haven't noticed, I'm interested in what you think, not what Rush thinks. And when you say "I know you can’t possibly mean that statement," which you say every time I say something obvious, I know that you know what I said was true. The rest of what you say is just blather; which is sad because I know you're really trying hard to make some sort of point. If only I knew what it was, I could respond properly. Truly, I want to do so, since you seem to need it so much.

Not Stupid, LOL @ your link! A bunch of Arabs playing the victim card? How original! Give it a rest pal. I also heard that the Israelis raped thousands of women when they took over Jennin. I bet there also a website about that too.
Mike, I was in the military for twenty years and I even spent a year as a guard. Nobody and I mean NOBODY would follow an order to harm children and rape women. For you to think otherwise shows how far down the Left-Wing Liberal Looney path you have gone. The soldiers responsible for the abuse at Abu Gharib are in prison only one even opted for a trial, the rest outright confessed to their crimes.
As to the photos, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from showing more snuff photos or movies made by the sadistic guards that are NOW in prison except to further embarrass this country and make our job in the Middle East more difficult.

Hey sarge, didn't you once say that even though you'd been in the military 20 years, you'd never seen combat? And aren't you retired Air Force? So, really, you wouldn't know whether there was rape and torture in a war zone because you'd never been there?

And the thing to be gained is that doubting Thomases like you won't believe it happened until it's shoved in your faces. Can your delicate sensibilities handle the truth?

Well, Cyber Sarge, if what you say is true, then releasing the photos will not cause much further damage, will they? Unless what is alleged to be in the photos is true, and you are in fact wrong.

As for your rants, so-called Centrist, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Covering up a crime so as to not pay a deserved price -- a crime and a price this nation needs to come to terms with if we're to survive as a functioning democracy let alone to move on in foreign relations including in Iraq -- is no way for a free society to work.

iamcoyote, Yes I was in the Air Force but I didn't live in bubble and the services do in fact live and work together. Tell you what, you find me one credible GI that says he was ordered to rape women and beat kids and I will sign my retirement pay over to you, TODAY. Since you love to demean my military service, care to out whagt service you served in that gives you so much incredible insight?

Torturing POWs was the American way in WWII?

We must not be reading from the same history books. What are some titles supporting your assertions, Centrist?

Wow when did the trolls pick up on this site. Lack of accountability when our government has committed prima facie war crimes, is their menu du jour.

I suppose if someone killed their family they'd asked them to be let go, lest their exposure, trial and conviction cause riots. Yeah right.

But thank you Steve for emphasizing such a glaring fact - a judge has to insist that the government's arguments in a legal case be made public. Amazing how this "democracy" thing the wingers use to justify everything in theory seems to entail more and more of our government hiding its actions from us citizens in practice.

A secrete conversation between George Soros and the ACLU was leaked to the Press just moments ago.

Do you have a reference?

Everyone knows what kind of shit has been going on.

no, they don't. GWB admin has had Yoo justifying his torture legality while claiming they don't condone it. Evidence this came from the pentagon is overwhelming, yet they deny that too.

Hell we've been torturing prisoners since the Civil fucking War.

not as a national policy, we haven't. Except, of course, for interludes such as Kissinger (Chile) and few others the perps never admitted.

Do you not know that we've tortured, shot and slit the throats of Japanese prisoners in WWII? Do you think anyone really gave a shit back then?

so you don't "give a shit". ok, got it cowboy.

Stop lying and just admit you want this stuff released because it hurts Bush.

I want it released 'cause it's the truth, and because in long run W's torture is going to make the world worse... actually already has. Now, reports that Iraq gov is doing same thing. Last weekends WP published pentagon "leaks" describing "unrealistic expectations" and reassessments are a testament to that fact.

This whole Islamic extremism began with exact same thing... eg. Mossadeq coup (US lied about it) folowed by CIA's SAVAK support under Shah (US lied about it) resulting in simmering anger metastasizing in Khomeni.

Some people never learn.

Let the people see what we're doing and judge that against W's claims of "freedom", "democracy" etc.

It's hard to imagine an Iraq campaign designed to fail being any worse than Junior's big adventure.

My sarcasm is really how you libs are coming off to the rest of us level headed folks.

you "level headed folks" have based pro-war support on lies. That's empty headed.

Tell you what, you find me one credible GI that says he was ordered to rape women and beat kids and I will sign my retirement pay over to you, TODAY.

So if some grunt is willing to volunteer a confession that will get him life at hard labor, you will concede the point.

How generous of you. I'm an Army vet, E-5, ETS 1968, and if it was happening in VietNam then, and it was, it is happening even more now.

Children tortured at Abu Ghraib

Amesty International has proof that children have been detained and tortured. Whether anyone likes it or not, we are no different that the regime we overthrew.

What is really surreal is that the horrors of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are in the headlines every day, and yet they continue. Here are some excerpts from the harrowing "Arrested Development" by Arlie Hochschild, on abuse of children at Gitmo and other US detention centers, from the op-ed page of the June 29 New York Times, online at Iraq Occupation Watch:

Under international law, the line between childhood and maturity is 18. In communications with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, the Pentagon has lowered the cutoff to 16. For this reason among others, we don't know exactly how many Iraqi children are in American custody. But before the transfer of sovereignty from the Coalition Provisional Authority to an Iraqi interim government a year ago, the International Committee of the Red Cross reported registering 107 detainees under 18 during visits to six prisons controlled by coalition troops. Some detainees were as young as 8.

Since that time, Human Rights Watch reports that the number has risen. The figures from Afghanistan are still more alarming: the journalist Seymour Hersh wrote last month in the British newspaper The Guardian that a memo addressed to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld shortly after the 2001 invasion reported "800-900 Pakistani boys 13-15 years of age in custody."

Juvenile detainees in American facilities like Abu Ghraib and Bagram Air Base have been subject to the same mistreatment as adults. The International Red Cross, Amnesty International and the Pentagon itself have gathered substantial testimony of torture of children, bolstered by accounts from soldiers who witnessed or participated in the abuse.

Cyber Sarge, I don't know where you have been, but the detaining of children and torture of said children, is not new in this War. Amesty International has been following this illegal activity almost since the beginning of the War. You know what that makes us? It makes us no better than those who tortured children in World War II medical experiments in Germany.

as a species, we are cruel, ruthless and greedy.

you left out "except for those who are born again." I'm sure that was just a mistake on your part. (i wonder what that "making a mistake" thing feels like.)

Don't be coy, Centrist: give us a title or a link to a transcript. Anything.

Relying on the comments of what were potentially "a few bad apples" doesn't give you any cover to assert, "that was the American way back then," besides ignoring the fact that the Geneva Conventions are American law by treaty.

repack rider, so you personally witnessed war crimes and testified to them in court or is this another Winter Soldier tale? You can all bay at the moon until your blue in the face and read tons of Amnesty diatribes but nobody can point to an officer and say “He told me to do it” because it didn’t happen that way. Also any doubt as to Amnesty International being a centrist organization went out the window when the equate the detention (not slaughter) of individuals to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany. You people have bellowed, “Bush is a Nazi” so much that you actually believe that Americans today are capable of such crimes. Note the total number of KILLED in Gitmo to date: zero. And what we call interrogation, Amnesty calls torture, so be it. When we asked the terrorists “pretty please” they seem to clam up. Trust me a temperature change and wearing women under things is far cry from the treatment EVERYONE gets from the terrorists, sawing off of the head. If you all and Amnesty can not figure out who has the moral high ground then you really need to start some sort of psychiatric treatment because YOU have lost your moral grounding.

sarge is right. morally, we are certainly above the nazis; it sure feels good to say that. those hundreds of terrorists we released for some reason should be happy that we ever let them go. do you think the nazis would stop at three years arbitrary detention? hell, no! USA! USA!

...Note the total number of KILLED in Gitmo to date: zero....YOU have lost your moral grounding. Posted by Cyber Sarge
Let's check out the number of deaths at Abu Ghraib
1 . Two shot dead at Abu Ghraib
2. CIA role in deaths at Abu Ghraib.

Here is the Winter Soldier investigation and here is another report
Here is the story on the Tiger Force iinvestigation
Your continued defense of war crimes and war criminals shows that you are a good Bushevic but not a good American. Your devotion to your leader at the expense of truth, God, and country is Stalinist.

Medical Examiner Testifies Beaten Afghan Detainee's Muscles Were 'Falling Apart'

The "few bad apples" keep on multiplying. If you don't think these people were following orders.... well, you just keep your head in the sand.

Sharon, evidently these people refuse to believe that orders were given, from the top, to torture the Iraqis. They really believe that just a "few bad apples" decided on day to implement torture. Never mind that this WH sought, with the help of Gonzales, how they could torture and not get in trouble. Seems to me that Rummy has no problem with this type of interrogation.

It's the torture, stupid.

Not the reporting.

What good Germans we have here.

Deutchland uber...

I mean, Gawd Bless Amurrikka!

We're Number One!

(True: The land of the free has the largest civilian prison population of ANY country on Earth!) WHOO HOO!

Centrist,

I don't apply the same standards due to the obvious differences between conditions in WWII and Iraq. If, in fact, any torture or summary executions were carried out during WWII, they would have occurred at or near the front lines, not in a prison camp as the Abu Graib photos document.

Then there is the matter of competent and ethical civilian leadership which existed at the time, as opposed to the present day.