It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: right-wing zealots believe Government doesn't work, and when they're in charge of government, they make sure it doesn't.
On the Left, by contrast, we know (based on historical evidence) that Government can and does work very well when it's allowed to and directed by competent people, and lo and behold, when Democrats are in power, Government works much better. In fact, when Democrats are in power, all institutions, public and private, seem to work much better, each fulfilling its potential and working together for a better society for all.
Funny how that happens.
Posted by Jonathan at September 10, 2005 05:02 PM"Frankly, I wasn't surprised that it went the way it did," Mr. Falkenrath said.
He knew more than we did, we were surprised.
shrubCo undershot even our already low expectations. It was unbelievable to get up one day after another and hear that these stranded people still didn't have food and water.
Posted by fly at September 10, 2005 05:29 PMThe Democrats were in power in pre-Katrina Louisiana both on the municipal and state level. What is your excuse for their mistakes, Jonathon?
Posted by Mr Damage at September 10, 2005 05:39 PM"Bush wants a pass for Katrina saying it was too big to handle. Where does that leave the mayor of a poor, failed city and the governor of one of our poorest states? The whole idea behind FEMA is for it to handle catastrophes of such scale."
Posted by Ken Melvin at September 10, 2005 06:03 PMMr. Damage, If you had been paying attention, you would have known that Mr. Bush issued an emergency declaration on Sat., 8/27, thereby giving FEMA full responsibility for all that went wrong. As we know now, FEMA's planning assumed that all police cars and emergency vehicles would continue to function as normal. Large numbers of New Orleans' and, if I'm not mistaken, every single one of St. Bernard's police cars flooded. Any child can compare last year's FEMA response in Florida (competent, well organized) with this year's response in the Gulf coast (grossly incompetent, totally clueless) and realize that the difference is that this year no electoral votes were at issue. Last year FEMA was an arm of the re-election campaign; this year it was an arm of the drown government services in the bathtub crowd.
Posted by Brian Boru at September 10, 2005 06:26 PMThis is an improvement, but I don't think all the BS is washed out. Read the Times-Picayune blog. I don't have the links, but search for fifteen minutes and you will find plenty of stories. Failure of floodwalls of 17th street canal that would have normally lead to extensive levee failure and very serious flooding were observed and reported by Army Corps of Engineer manager to appropriate officials outside disaster area by late Monday morning. There were joint plans from hurricane Pam exercise, with agreed on deadlines for FEMa relief, but neither relief nor communication ever came. There is a story from Jefferson Parish about that.
In 1906 SF earthquake, the feds managed to provide relief quickly without all the handwringing. Army, Navy and Cutter squadran presented themselves to local authorities and asked what they could do within hours.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/opinion/08winchester.html)
The trolls should shut up and go away. There will be plenty of blame to go around. But the Bush administration is the bunch that started lying and smearing out of the gate, and they are the ones planning a whitewash. Local Democrates will be a complete examination, we know that. We don't know that about feds.
Posted by still some BS there at September 10, 2005 06:34 PM"...Mr. Bush issued an emergency declaration on Sat., 8/27, thereby giving FEMA full responsibility for all that went wrong."
Actually, no.
The emergency declaration allows FEMA to work with local authorities, not to assume local authority.
"Any child can compare last year's FEMA response in Florida (competent, well organized) with this year's response in the Gulf coast (grossly incompetent, totally clueless)..."
Yes, I am gald that you noticed.
Perhaps the difference is in the resonse of the local authorities.
"In 1906 SF earthquake, the feds managed to provide relief quickly without all the handwringing. Army, Navy and Cutter squadran presented themselves to local authorities and asked what they could do within hours.In 1906 SF earthquake, the feds managed to provide relief quickly without all the handwringing. Army, Navy and Cutter squadran presented themselves to local authorities and asked what they could do within hours."
The thesame response today would have elicited howls of anger from the left.
"Looters found despoiling the dead were summarily executed by the militia - stood against the nearest wall or pile of debris and shot without the hindrance of a trial. The same brutal justice was delivered to amateur photographers. “Word received from Galveston today indicates that Kodak fiends are being shot down like thieves. Two, it is stated, were killed yesterday while taking pictures of nude female bodies.”
— Dallas News, September 14, 1900.
Perhaps you should re-think your historical comparisons.
Posted by Bagley at September 10, 2005 06:53 PMMr. Drainage -- are you talking about some actual mistakes, or the bogus crap you right wingers have been putting out there?
Even if the bullcrap that you wingnuts have been trafficking in were right, it wouldn't matter. As Brian put succinctly above, FEMA had primary responsibility.
Wingnuts: they're what's for dinner.
Posted by Jonathan at September 10, 2005 07:00 PMBagley,
You're out of your league, here.
No one is saying FEMA had "local authority". We're saying they had primary responsibility. It's a matter both of resources and of statute: the feds had the legal power to act, and depended not one whit on local authorities to do so. Moreover, local governments are always overmatched by disasters on this level. It's the whole reason we have a FEMA.
Posted by Jonathan at September 10, 2005 07:12 PMGbbmnt wll tk cr f s, w dn't hv t lft fngr t hlp rslvs, fmly r nghbr. f th hlp dsn't cm r mt r ngrt prsmptns thn w cn pllry smn.
[Editor: ignore=off]Bendito (or should I call you Bagley, or Mr. Damage?): nice double standard. Personal responsibility for everyone but Mr. Bush and his appointees.
We only pay him, what, $400,000 per year, plus perks? I suppose in your mind, it's OK if you pay an employee buku bucks to sit on his ass, instead of doing his job?
Oh, that's right: that only applies if the person in question is a Republican.
Posted by Jonathan at September 10, 2005 07:16 PMIt's hardly worth responding to the fools like damaged goods up there but it's worth one simple question.
Where's the "can do, problem solvin preznit" when ya need him?
All any president needs to do is snap his fingers and legions of people jump up and get to work. And legions of people were ready to be given that command, it's documented.
This preznit seems to have forgotten how to use those fingers. He musta delegated the finger snapping to some nearby political hack.
Posted by fly at September 10, 2005 07:37 PMA simple question: Why did it take so long for the Army helicopters to start dropping food/water and medivacing out the sick?
Posted by fracas_futile at September 10, 2005 07:57 PMFirst of note Brian, your claim that the President can declare that FEMA a Federal Agency is 'in charge' is false. It's like saying Tony Blair declared Britain was in charge, the US laws make it clear, the Governor is in charge. I've seen the Daily Kos interpretation of the Posse Comitatus act, it's an interesting interpretation, however an official interpretation from the US Military (which acts within it's understanding is http://www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.factsheets&factsheet=5
So Brian et al, you are going to have to accept that the President can't assume (short of a rebellion or WMD) control within a state.
Of particular note each state appoints a FEMA coordinator for just this reason, thus the FEMA coordinator for Louisiana - One Bill Lokey... who should like Mr. Brown be fired. Interesting New Orleans even has it's own emergency coordination appointee - Terry Ebbert, who should also be fired. President Bush opened the doors to federal aid before the disaster, offered to take over when the scope was too big for the local government (an offer which was refused) and as a result Louisiana has suffered. Note that the FEMA failure seen from a literally devastated Missippi haven't been nearly as critical. The result is best illustrated in humor...
Posted by OutsideTheEchoChamber at September 10, 2005 08:11 PMBagley is apparently unaware of the National Response Plan, which gives the Feds (DHS and FEMA) "proactive responsibility" to coordinate with state and local officials, and deliver whatever assistance is necessary, regardless of normal-time protocol. Unfortunately, it seems FEMA wasn't aware of the NRP either.
Posted by Elrod at September 10, 2005 08:12 PMbtw, Fracas _futile - related question - why were the Salvation Army and Red Cross baned from the Super Dome by Louisiana officials?
Posted by OutsideTheEchoChamber at September 10, 2005 08:13 PMThe trolls are desperate to say such stupid things. Several Talkingpontsmemo and TPMCafe posts have a detailed analysis of federal versus local responsibilities under the laws that were invoked last week. People should go there and read them.
One troll doesn't seem to understand the difference between San Francisco and Galveston. Said troll also seems to have rather fascist idea that if active duty military is involved, that necessarily means lots of shooting their own civilians. Projection, I suppose. Right now unaccountable private security guards under rather ambiguous authority are patrolling NOLA and other places in disaster area. I would take active duty military instead any day. Said troll also tosses out the often used but ludicrous argument that Bush would have done something sensible or taken charge or performed competently, but if he had done so, the left would have criticized him mercilessly, therefore he couldn't. ...poor man. Said troll also doesn't seem to understand that active duty military in SF quake placed itself under authority of local government, so local government was accountable for their actions.
The trolls are pathetic. They are being played for fools by their masters. The Bush administration lines have been self-contradictory and incoherent, and BushCo has issued several patent lies. I think the trolls that are left must be on the payroll. Would people humilate themselves this way for fee?
Look, Nagin, Blanco and feds surely all made mistakes. If we had an independent commission investigating, we could fairly evaluate their respective performances. But BushCo's corrupt thugs and stooges in Congress will not allow an objective independent commission, and it is very obvious that FEMA has been turned into a patronage and graft operation run by unqualifed PR hacks, so we attack Bush.
What will the trolls send next? THE BUSSES! THE BUSSES! Well, we surely will hear about the busses.
But regulation II.4.A.ii says the bailiff is supposed to go the high sherrif supposed to go to the Parish President supposed to go to the County High Commissioner... blah blah blah...
Right right right. All that will be examined, but not by an imparital investigation. BushCo won't be examined at all.
Posted by trollsaredesperate at September 10, 2005 08:29 PMIn my opinion, each and every public official at all levels of city, state and federal government, who were charged by law with the "duty" to protect the lives of Americans during natural disasters, and who recklessly or grossly negligently breached that "duty" and proximately caused the death of any person in New Orleans or Biloxi, etc., by such breach, should be charged with criminal negligent homicide or manslaughter, and if convicted should be sent to jail for the maximum period allowed by law. Nothing less is called for.
Posted by Marty at September 10, 2005 09:24 PMEverybody made mistakes, anyone would make a few mistakes at least in a big natural disaster. I will Monday morning quarterback Nagin. It seems like he did call the evacuation late. Maybe he should have called it when the hurricane was category 3, since it was at the edge of being too big for the levees. If experts think he's at fault, then so be it. But NOLA did evacuate more than planned or expected -almost 80% I think. Maybe he should have tried an evacuation with school or city transportation equipment, but I read that the plan to that so wasn't ready yet, so maybe it would have turned into a mess. Blanco or LA state government may have had something to do with keeping Red Cross totally out all week, which might have been a mistake.
Maybe there is more that we didn't see. But they didn't make lethal fools of themselves in front of TV and the whole world. They didn't say false things about the situation. Who did those things? And which ones are rushing to control the investigation? Ans: The federal government under Bush
I'd like to see an objective investigation, but it doesn't look like there's going to be one.
Posted by a_ at September 10, 2005 09:55 PMEven if Blanco and the Mayor of NO performed horribly, that still doesn't excuse the absolutely incompetent performance of the federal government.
Wingnuts seem to think that if they can pin the blame on Blanco and Naygan that it absolves Bush and crew, when in fact, the failure of the locals also shows the failure of the feds, because the feds MUST be ready to step-in in these situations.
Posted by Pat M at September 10, 2005 10:19 PMBagley and OutsideTheEchoChamber, the Stafford Act which the president invoked as his authority was accepted by the La. gov. the very next day, legally, formally. That act explicitly assigns to FEMA the duty to "coordinate" all relief and rescue efforts. Coordination entails things like these oversimplified examples, such as, "What are you doing? Coast Guard running rescue flights? Yes, that's good, continue. Local police not patrolling? That's bad, go do that now. We got the food delivery covered." Coordination means being the brains, and requesting and supply more resources when needed. Did FEMA do that? Hell, no. Did anyone in the federal government? No, they did not.
Give it up, trolls.
I saw the mayor and governor on TV for four days begging for federal assistance, each day getting progressively more desperate. Where was Bush? On vacation for the first two days. Chertoff, head of Homeland Security? I didn't see him until days later, claiming no one could have imagined such a thing was possible, even though it had been covered for decades by more sources than we can all count. Brown, head of FEMA? I heard him say things were under control, when they clearly were not. Face it, the Bushies screwed up royalty, and it's gonna cost you cons, big-time.
Posted by Brian Bell at September 10, 2005 10:21 PMOutsideTheEchoChamber says: "why were the Salvation Army and Red Cross baned from the Super Dome by Louisiana officials
Early reports (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) concerning aid for pre- and day of the hurricane said: "The Homeland Security Department has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross.
"Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
Though frustrated, Hosler understood the reasons. The goal is to move people out of an uninhabitable city, and relief operations might keep them there. Security is so bad that she fears feeding stations might get ransacked.
Well this week, the story is changing. From a Friday UPI story: Marsha Evans, the national Red Cross president, first made the request to open its relief effort on Sept. 1, three days after Katrina struck, officials say.
That would be Tuesday.
"We had adequate supplies, the people and the vehicles," said Vic Howell, chief executive officer of the agency's Louisiana Capital Area Chapter. "It was the middle of a military rescue operation trying to save lives. We were asked not to go in and we abided by that recommendation."
Col. Jay Mayeaux, the deputy director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, said he had asked the Red Cross to wait 24 hours for conditions to be "set" for the operation. But by then a large scale evacuation was under way.
So it appears (pending more info) there's confusion about when the Red cross wanted to go in. It appears NO, with two days of food and water at the Superdome, in the best case, would allow the evacuees to return to their homes after the hurricane passed, or, in the worst case, evacuate and/or resupply the Superdome after the flood.
In the 2004 "Hurricane Pam" exercise, an exercise articipant said FEMA made many promises to supply NO whatever they needed after the Hurricane passed. Scheduled follow-ups to address found problems in this exercise where cancelled due to lack of funding.
This exercise and FEMA plans did not address the possiblitiy of local services being overcome by the disaster. Apparently, niether did the NO plans.
By Tuesday, the Superdome evacuees were getting restless, wet, stinky and hungry. There were reports of "looting/finding food and water" in other parts of NO. There was fear by those outside of NO of anarchy in NO (notably the Gretna Sheriff's Department). Red Cross wouldn't or was denied entry to the Superdome because of perceived security risks. And the Superdome evacuation was late.
Now, back to my question : Why did it take so long for the Army helicopters to start dropping food/water and medivacing out the sick?
"Outside" --
FEMA is not barred by Posse Comitatus, as FEMA isn't military. And even if it had (ludicrous, that), Gov. Blanco specifically requested federal help.
My goodness, man, don't you even try?
I'm serious. There are so few of you Bush defenders left, I think it's getting safe to say that the ones still around are on the payroll. Frankly, the RNC isn't getting its money's worth.
Posted by Jonathan at September 11, 2005 12:06 AMJonathan and fracas -- you guys are great. Reasoned responses, point by point.
Just wanted to let you know that I for one, truly appreciate your effort.
I send out a well done from Houston -- which just happens to have a strong Democrat for a leader, even though we have nonpartisan elections . . .
Posted by dorita at September 11, 2005 01:09 AMI'm skeptical of the NYT article.
As I read it, I sensed that I was hearing the White House spin. The excuse that is being set up, here, is that the Bush admin might have done a better job if it hadn't been for the state and local people. Either they were incompetent (they didn't know what they wanted!) or they slowed up federal response (they didn't want to let us run things our way!)
I can't use this article in arguments with wingnuts, because they can pick out the parts of it that they like and interpret it to their advantage.
We need to hear what really happened, and not from the usual cast of self-serving "unnamed White House sources."
Posted by Dumbo at September 11, 2005 02:35 AMI keep having this nagging thought that won't go away. It is the result of reports and events I can identify. Regardless, it may be unfounded and far-fetched. So I'm asking, is it possible that the slow governmental response to NO survivors was primarily due to fear on the part of administrative officials at all levels? Did they delay the relief effort until they could invade the city with an army? I'm just asking?
Posted by OffTheFence at September 11, 2005 02:58 AMI wouldn't rule it out!
Posted by pessimist at September 11, 2005 06:53 AM"no one could have imagined such a thing was possible,"
Brian Bell, you reminded me of something I heard on NPR yesterday. "No one could have imagined that when we sold them french frys, they would want ketchup."
Posted by Judith at September 11, 2005 07:12 AMDumbo I'm with you on the NYT article...I read it before this reading this post/thread and felt like it had the same whitehouse spin as an undercurrent running through it.
Anyway fwiw, from what I read over at Media Matters that has an extensive posting about the Redcross issue, the National Response Plan states the Red Cross is under the purview of FEMA/DHS.
Posted by emal at September 11, 2005 07:33 AMthe National Response Plan states the Red Cross is under the purview of FEMA/DHS.
emal - thank you! One of those NYT articles has someone claiming that the fatal flaw in the NRP is that they didn't anticipate local authorities would be incapacitated. Such brilliant planning, right? That's where they get their tagline "no one could have anticipated..." they just drop in levee breaking instead of police drowning. There's also the FEMA notice on the 29th asking first responders not to respond. That's getting very little attention, isn't it? In the midst of the storm, FEMA tells other states not to send their rescue people in unless Blanco asks. Blanco thinks she's already made the right requests, the electricity's down, and she doesn't have time to go check FEMAs website for new pronouncements. She's on tv asking for 3 days, but we find out FEMAs not watching tv because they "didn't know" people were at the convention center. Later on the 29th FEMA reiterates its request for volunteers to stay out because:
...it’s important that volunteer response is coordinated by the professionals who can direct volunteers with the appropriate skills to the hardest-hit areas where they are needed most. Self-dispatched volunteers and especially sightseers can put themselves and others in harm’s way and hamper rescue efforts
Posted by iamcoyote at September 11, 2005 08:27 AMiamcoyote, you continue to bring up valid points and linked documents...thank you.
Plus wasn't one of the important lessons they supposedly learned from 9/11 was the need to have other people assigned to (in this case FEMA/DHS representative-knowledgable in disaster and emergency planning) to play a controlling,coordinating, and active role in providing and directing the resources, communication equipment, and responding personel because so many first responders to 9/11 became incapacitated,trapped, and lost communication when the Twin Towers collapsed? Isn't this in many ways essentially the same scenario we just witnessed in NOLA and other gulf coast communities but it was wind and water as opposed to terrorist flying airplanes into buildings that caused the scenario.
Posted by emal at September 11, 2005 08:57 AMThe system worked in Mississippi, it didn't work in Louisiana. It's not a federal problem, it was a state and local problem. The resources were available to the state ergo - the Ray Nagin Memorial Motor pool... (no that's not the link I know you've all seen Louisiana's squandered resources.)
Posted by OutsideTheEchoChamber at September 11, 2005 10:22 PMAlso... note what another state which helped in Katrina aid (and this story isn't complimentary of either Mississippi or Louisiana's initial response says.
You can keep sitting in here talking about paper but just like a real response reality just doesn't agree with what you want...
And finally a quick link from someone who is a native of New Orleans... which was one of the most compelling for me.
Posted by OutsideTheEchoChamber at September 11, 2005 10:33 PMHere's the reality you can't handle, OutsideTheEchoChamber, the real deal, the one that "just doesn't agree with what you want..."
Bush is going down. Bush's failure is all over this. He's at best a lame-duck with three years to go. At best. At worst, Congress will be returned to Democratic hands over this. For sure, the Republicans will be driven from the presidency in 2008 over this. Really, the only question now is how low will Bush's poll numbers go now that he has lost the complete and total respect of the vast majority of this country's citizens. We all know he ain't getting anything on his agenda done for the next three years. If I were him, I'd be thinking resignation.
Posted by Brian Bell at September 11, 2005 10:38 PMOTEC
Just what major city of 500,000 mainly poor was evacuated in those states?.. .
Posted by at September 12, 2005 04:34 AM