The saber rattling will continue. Oil, Isreal, & PNAC dreams.
Posted by PwapVt at September 19, 2005 04:08 AMIt's not necessarily the plans & agreements this administration has problems with - it's the follow through.
If they get North Korea to disarm and both sides hold up their responsibilites, then I'll congratulate them.
Posted by idiosynchronic at September 19, 2005 04:32 AMWell, N. Korea got what they wanted from us. We're basicaly paying them to get rid of their nukes. Sort of like paying ransom for kidnapped terrorists. I see this more a victory for them than for us, really. And hardly a victory for diplomacy. It also gives other countries a big bargaining stick when they want things from us.
Posted by ann at September 19, 2005 06:00 AMYes, congratulations to the Bush administration for giving diplomacy a chance. There's a lot of work to still be done before this agreement becomes anything near a reality. The North Koreans agreed at the last minute and the subject of providing the North with a light water reactor was "left for future consideration" because the US refused and the North Koreans were demanding it. It's a deal buster. So unless someone's stance on that changes I can still see this falling apart.
And I'm not entirely convinced that Bush, in particular, and his underlings can avoid another "axis of evil" moment that will give the North Koreans another perfect opportunity to balk and increase the price tag. It's hard for bullys to bite their lip and not get the last word in. And I can imagine there'll be some pressure on the Bushies to play tough for the neo-cons.
But again, I'm glad to see even this much progress.
Posted by muckcat at September 19, 2005 06:27 AMFor ann:
It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"
You never get rid of the Dane.
I don't think we can trust the N. Koreans and it seems the US isn't getting too excited yet, but apparently they agreed to having inspectors on the ground... Maybe this is a set up to make the US look bad when they say no to their nuclear reactors as mentioned above... We can hope and pray I guess. At least something happened toward a nuke free N. Korea...
Posted by Tex at September 19, 2005 06:38 AMSoto:
Now perhaps the administration can see from this victory the fruits of multilateral pressure, rather than war, and cobble together an international wall of opposition to the saber-rattling from the new nutcases in Iran about their nuclear aims.
Nice try at rewriting history, Steve. It was the Kerry-Albright-Berger types (and yourself) who were pushing for bilateral talks, while the Bush Administration rightly tried to include all concerned parties. Guess which approach worked best.
And, in case you hadn't noticed, we haven't been actively engaged in warfare with North Korea for more than half a century. It was the threat of war that helped bring these kimchi-heads to their senses. That and hunger.
But thanks for the demonstration of creative recall.
Posted by Toby Petzold at September 19, 2005 08:03 AMGuess which approach worked best.
yes, 8 nukes is definitely better than 2!
Posted by kim jong-il at September 19, 2005 08:08 AMWhat we have is a collective memory problem. Getting back to where we were five years ago is no great accomplishment.
Posted by Ken Melvin at September 19, 2005 08:09 AMGuess which approach worked best.
I believe that would be the checkbook. I'm wondering, though, are we borrowing money from say, South Korea or even China, to pay off North Korea so it won't build nukes? Interesting....
Posted by ann at September 19, 2005 10:15 AMToby, you are adept at rewriting history yourself. The Bush Administration didn't want any negotiations until they were dragged into it by the Chinese. The key was that talks of any type were better than not talking.
Posted by Steve Soto at September 19, 2005 10:15 AMWell, as I noted earlier in the day the North Koreans fully expect a light water reactor as part of the deal.
Posted by muckcat at September 19, 2005 06:24 PMThe North Korean leadership cannot be trusted.
Posted by Bagley at September 19, 2005 06:28 PMWow Steve, now that comment is revisionist history. As background, from the Washington Post in an article filed from Beijing and obvously partial to Chinese sensibilities:
The talks, comprising North Korea, South Korea, Japan, China, Russia and the United States, began in August 2003 in Beijing. Two more rounds, in February and June 2004, were held here before North Korea balked, citing the Bush administration's tough rhetoric.
China, which is North Korea's neighbor, has invested heavily in keeping the negotiations alive, saying it, too, is eager to remove the danger of nuclear weapons on the Korean Peninsula. But Bush administration officials repeatedly have complained that the Beijing government refuses to use all the tools at its disposal, including oil deliveries, to pressure Kim into giving up his weapons.
The full article is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005070802186.html?nav=rss_world/asia
The Chinese have not pressured the administration, in fact it was a visit by the Sec. of State that resulted in China's latest arm bending on NK. I in fact would argue that US Liberals have provided far more heat on the administration then China ever did... although I have to admit I think that the Bush plan requiring multi-party talks that most have complained about have been justified, even with your revisionist view that it's the Chinese that triggered the talks. Because in the end is the Chinese that are making North Korea come to the table and talk, since the US really doesn't have much to offer NK as shown by last bilateral treaty which NK ignored. Bush may be dumb but he isn't as stupid as those who would repeat histories mistakes.
Posted by OutsideTheEchoChamber at September 19, 2005 07:34 PMThe North Korean leadership cannot be trusted.
Posted by Bagley
The North American leadership cannot be trusted either.
But thanks for the demonstration of creative recall.Posted by Toby Petzold
Our recall is excellent and far better than your spin. If fact, Bush caved. Lovin' it.
Outside,
The Chinese grabbed Chris Hill by the short hairs.
Posted by snark at September 20, 2005 06:32 AM