AFAIK, the only senator calling for withdrawal is feingold. is his viability for '08 enhanced as the country turns against the war? i would say so. plus the Culture of Corruption plays to his strengths (a lot of folks think his first name is "McCain"). plus he voted for roberts in committee, giving him (feingold) moderate cred. and he voted against the patriot act, which is finding itself stuck in many a gullet these days. and he's from the midwest, where many real americans live, i'm told.
he is kinda young and jewish, though.
The fucking war was a crime from the beginning.
The only way to end a crime is to end the fucking crime.
Out of Iraq NOW!
Posted by Vinnie at September 25, 2005 12:52 PMI'm post-happy this weekend, and I certainly do not disagree with this well thought out post, but my reading of Prof. Cole on this crucial point is that he is advocating the withdrawal of US "ground" troops, but wants to have some air assets remain in Iraq to forstall a "full blown" civil war (as opposed to what's going on now).
Perhaps I've got his position wrong, but that was my reading. And of course removal of just the ground forces would be a huge step forward.
Posted by euzoius at September 25, 2005 02:11 PMeuzoius:
That is my reading as well; he still wants the air power there to support the Iraqi forces, which I agree with, but he is advocating for getting the ground troops out.
Posted by Steve Soto at September 25, 2005 02:47 PMThe best we as a nation can hope for at this point is a graceful withdrawal that on one hand says we're done, and on the other says we have not been beaten, but wish to move on. We cannot win the hearts and minds of these people doing what we're doing.
Posted by DukeRevolution at September 25, 2005 03:21 PMSoto:
And a message to the trolls that will challenge this thinking: forget it. Cole has forgotten more than you or your dumbfuck president will ever know about that region of the world.
In forensics, this ploy is called the "appeal to authority." It's the intellectual equivalent of the notion that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
This idea that Abu Ghraib was a watershed moment in the history of the world is all played out. It may be a watershed moment with the anti-war/anti-Bush crowd, but only because it was a chance at some propaganda that they found too delicious to ever stop resorting to.
Posted by Toby Petzold at September 25, 2005 03:53 PMThis idea that Abu Ghraib was a watershed moment in the history of the world is all played out.
Are you sure that it didn't just move to Basra?
Posted by pessimist at September 25, 2005 04:03 PMThis career military officer thinks Abu Ghraib important enough to risk ruining his career over standing up for his moral values as a Christian:
Fishback maintains that he witnessed detainees being stripped, deprived of sleep and exposed to the elements at the behest of Army intelligence officers, who wanted the prisoners softened up for interrogation.
Toby, how many people did you help during either/both storms? Oh, and despite the fact that you are seemingly of age to serve, why haven't you? One new, and one very old question, I know, but will you ever answer either?
As far as debating tactics go, I doubt Steve needs you to identify them. And calling it a "ploy" reflects more on you than him. It's the intellectual equivalent of the notion that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
WTF? How long did it take you to come up with that? (hours, looks like)
However and by whatever justification, it is looking like a withdrawal will happen. My concern is that is will be driven by politics and not out of saving lives.
Dorita:
Toby, how many people did you help during either/both storms?
I was a volunteer caseworker with a NGO and helped many dozens of people from New Orleans and the surrounding area. I even got sick in the course of doing it. Wanna come down here to Austin and let me cough on you a little bit, you presumptuous old nag? I bet I still got enough of a bug for you to chew on.
Posted by Toby Petzold at September 25, 2005 04:42 PMHere's where I challenge calls for withdrawal. Bush IS going to bail, and will be looking for scapegoats. He will bail, and there will be a terrible civil war and then an Iran-aligned Islamic State will emerge. This will be because of Bush's invasion and then the occupation tactics.
But Bush will blame the "liberals" for forcing the withdrawal. And the Right's noise machine will have lots of great quotes from us to use when that happens.
We should be calling on Bush to explain how he is going to win. He can't explain that. But he is very, very good at pointing fingers when the consequences of his mistakes start making themselves known.
Posted by Dave Johnson at September 25, 2005 04:49 PMBillmon, whom is my most respected Blogger, and Juan Cole, who is apparently learned, have seen the light. But I wonder, how could those who correctly opposed and forecast failure in the Bush Iraq War have ever come to a conclusion that we "have to stay there now that we are there".
Look, this Bush War was a rich kids playground to start with, and it still is. Get OUT. We should have gotten out when no WMD were found, we should have gotten out when Saddam was found, we should have gotten out when the formed their "government". But no, we did not. Why? Because half of the Bush Admin never intended to leave at all and the other have had no plan to deal with the other half. It was a joke to start, a joke in the middle, a joke now, and will be a joke in 2 years if we "stay the course". That smart people are just figuring this out is too bad, but better late than never. And for the trolls, bugger off, you 40%er's.
Toby you got a bug? pobrecito. I am south of you btw in Houston. I posted about most of my activities regarding both storms over on lowandleft. And no, I'd rather not smell your breath. Not even going for the "cold" excuse. You sure have got your "suit" on already. "I did what I could but I got a cold . . . sniff sniff." wanker
You still haven't answered the old question. what you sceeered? What makes you think I am older than you or a nag for that matter -- oh I get the nag part -- Toby why aren't you serving your leader? The old part I don't get. More mature, maybe.
If you have anything to contribute to the current discussion, bring it. Otherwise STFU.
Posted by dorita at September 25, 2005 05:22 PM""have to stay there now that we are there""
Well I have been one of those who opposed this, and then said we should stay and straighten things out. The reason is the Geneva Convention requires us to, as well as common sense. You can't go screate a mess and then think you can just leave. It's like if we were hurricane Katrina, and after causing the damage decided to just "withdraw' and leave the people on their own. (Oh wait, Bush did that...)
We destabilized the region. If we just leave there WILL be a civil war that could kill hundreds of thousands. And then there will be an Islamic State aligned with Iran, with the oil wealth to use against us.
But the problem is that the same crowd who invaded and caused all of this are NOT the people competent to straighten things out. We absolutely need to beg the UN to come in and take over.
I think instead of talking about abandoning the people of Iraq we should be talking about a Nuremberg Trial for the Bush crowd.
Posted by Dave Johnson at September 25, 2005 06:11 PM This idea that Abu Ghraib was a watershed moment in the history of the world is all played out... Posted by Toby Petzold
It was a watershed moment in the sense that, with these crimes, the United States removed itself from the civilized community of nations. America has joined the pariah nations that commit human rights abuses as a matter of national policy such as Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Uzbekistan, Israel and others.
These disgraceful war crimes continue unabated which is America's shame and Bush's responsibility. War crimes are never "played out." They fester and destroy all the moral authority that the United States accumulated over its long history. Bush is no only the worst president ever inflicted on us, he and his followers have destroyed everthing noble this country formerly represented. Any person who defends this fascist barbarism is beneath contempt.
well put, Mike
Posted by dorita at September 26, 2005 01:02 AMSeptember 24, 2005 -- Hurricane evacuees don't see FEMA or Red Cross, but military recruiters show up in force. According to a number of sources familiar with the Gulf Coast evacuation situation arising from Hurricane Katrina, military recruiters appeared at hurricane evacuation centers across Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Arkansas, and other states long before evacuees ever saw anyone from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) or the Red Cross. Military recruiters, aware that a number of young, poor, and long-term or hurricane-related unemployed and homeless African American and white men were housed at evacuation shelters, took advantage of the disaster to recruit additional cannon fodder for Bush's war in Iraq.
Posted by at September 26, 2005 03:21 AM