What do we do if no indictments come out of all this?

I hear he's going to implicate Lee Atwater.

Do you think Rove's preoccupation with this Grand Jury investigation has anything to do with President Bush's apparent political blunder in nominating Miers?

After all, Rove is Bush's brain - and nominating Miers is the sort of thing we'd expect from someone without a brain.

Miller: "I can't really tell you anything on the grounds that it might get someone special in doo-doo."

Grand Jurist: "Ms. Miller, is it true you have received a $128M dollar advance from your publisher for your upcoming book?"

Miller: I didn't say it was from my publisher. And it was $127.86M dollars. Get your facts straight. And I have decided not to write my book after all. Well, I'd like to stay and chat longer, but I have a flight to a destination with no extradition treaty with the US. Bye, y'all."

And so, brave Judy rides off into the sunset and American history. This is Rod Serling for the Twilight Zone.

Rove offered back in July to testify again, and Fitz's answer was: "We'll get back to you."

Now that he knows what Judy had to say, and has thus circumscribed Rove's ability to lie his way out of trouble, they got back to him.

This means that indictments probably won't come out before the weekend. Bummer.

Steve,

You’re reaching again on this one.

If Rove was a “target”, he would receive a “target letter”. If Rove was ever a target, he would not have been allowed to testify before the grand jury without the proper warnings.

Of course Fitzgerald would want to confirm certain aspects of Miller’s testimony. She hasn’t been the most cooperative witness in history. But this take on the article is wishful thinking on your part.

Maybe in a parallel universe where liberals are allowed to run amok Karl Rove is serving time. He would have been prosecuted by Ronnie Earle and the main witness would be Bill Burkett. But in the reality based community, Joe and Valerie are the ones going down

I hear he's going to implicate Lee Atwater.

Funny, I heard he was going after Ollie North and Robert Kennedy. However, my source is an English fashion model with a coke habit, anorexia, and a boyfriend with lice, so she might not have it quite right. And no, her boyfriend is not Karl Rove.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Fitzgerald's entire case is nothing short of a criminal enterprise, and it is this out of control prosecutor that belongs in jail.

But in the reality based community, Joe and Valerie are the ones going down

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Damn, you should be working 5 nights a week at your local comedy club.

"But in the reality based community, Joe and Valerie are the ones going down"

Uh, for exactly what crimes, j. west?

Joe and Valerie are the ones going down

u jest, we don't ascribe to pornographic descriptions on this site. Take your voyeuristic tendencies somewhere else.

j. west, how do you know that Rove has not received a target letter? His lawyer has suddenly clammed up after shouting to the high heavens that Rove is not the target of this investigation.

Also reading your own post, if he did receive the proper warnings and still wanted to clear his name in front of the grand jury he could do that as well, can't he?

Steve's article as an opinion given the facts that we know certainly appears plausible.

J. West:

The first version of the AP story didn't have the information in it about the target letter that the updated version does. So I have corrected my post, as you can see.

I had a girlfriend once with a yappy little dog. Its only apparent purpose was annoyance of those around it. It wasn't going away so I decided the only way to cope was to ignore it as best I could. After awhile I found it took its yapping elsewhere, inexplicably chasing and barking after more interesting prey elsewhere in the house. The next such little doggie I'm confronted with in life I think I'll nickname "j. west".

The other day, u. jest admitted that he didn't know a lot about the law. Now we get "expert" analysis from the same scorce.

Real credable stuff.

Steve,

You are a scholar and a gentleman.

We always have room for people with those assets here on the dark side.

We always have room for people with those assets here on the dark side.

Plenty of room indeed.

Steve,

Not to nit pick, but a casual reader who is not acquainted with the nuances of this case might mistake the wording in your lead to mean that Karl Rove asked to speak to grand jury at this late date.

As the AP article makes fairly clear, Rove offered after his last appearance in July to come back if the prosecutor had any additional questions and it looks like Fitzgerald took this opportunity to ask him back.

He is appearing voluntarily (if that makes any difference), as you would expect anyone with nothing to hide to do. I’m sure he is as anxious to see the Wilson’s arrested as the prosecutor.

I don't think the "major speech" with "unprecedented detail" and the latest version of "the British government believes that whosiwhatsit is giving WMDs to Iraq terrorists" worked as a distraction. Dana Bash and Wolf basically said there was no new info in the speech that in fact was originally to be given in September and that the 10 instances of terror plots foiled that Dumbya mentioned could not in fact be backed up by the White House. Ho hum. Much more breathless ness about Rove and Libby, with Wolf emphasizing not just the leaking, but the obstruction and lying as a basis for possible indictments.

west ..can you tell us just why you're such an asshole?

Steve,

I feel terrible bringing this up on an otherwise finely written post but....

Technicalities aside, and this may just be my republican background talking, but I would think that even though the grand jury has a number of black members, they would be perfectly capable of making an honest, reasoned judgment without anyone being influenced by the "post Katrina environment".

I saw you pull that race card out of your sleeve!

j.west - always good for a laugh...

Perhaps Mr. Rove is going to do some plea bargaining...

This is getting good...

pessimist,

Sliming someone who is obviously not a racist by twisting an innocent comment is something I learned from the Bill Bennett incident.

Fitzgerald's entire case is nothing short of a criminal enterprise, and it is this out of control prosecutor that belongs in jail.

Al, the last time I thought that way, I could afford to sniff gas fumes. Harsh economic times and the money required to attend rehabilitation at the Scientology Celebrity Centre (I told them I was Paris Hilton's chihuahua) curtailed my fun, and I am now of a clear enough mind to state that you are completely full of shit. I can give you the number of the Centre if you like. You are definitely a Thetan in need of help.

The question is: will rove testify under oath this time. Remember - bush, cheney, rove, libby. rice.et al. were not sworn in for their previous statements. Am I wrong about this?

Al,

As much as it pains me, I have to agree with tempus on this one.

Fitzgerald is about as close to an unmolested Boy Scout as you can get. I'm sure whatever he comes up with is clean as the driven snow.

(snow is a white substance made from freezing water crystals - for those of you in Southern California)

Steve:

Please tell me that is a "before" picture. Please!

Yep that is it. As Teresa said above Bush's choice of Miers for SCOTUS is the result of Rove taking the last few days off to put all his lies on note cards and formulating a plan so that he can attempt to bullshit the grand jury.

Rove obviously thinks he can, and needs, to talk his way out of trouble.

Rove is just the sort of guy who thinks he is smart enough to talk his way out of deep shit when he would be better served maintaining silence. You see it on Fox TV's show Cops every week. Invariably, the wise guy ends up stepping on his dick and providing the prosecution enough rope to hang him.

Any time someone wants to provide a little more information to cover his ass, a prosecutor will have his bullshit detector finely tuned.

Steve,

Notice the post by Ho Ho Ho above.

Without an accurate interpretation of the facts, this poor soul is running around thinking Rove asked to be questioned in response to Judy’s appearance.

We need to work together to bring truth, justice and the American Way even to posters with bad pen names.

Geez, these twits are so predictable. Fitz agrees to a sit with Rove. News of this is published. Within the hour there's an alert issued of an imminent terrorist attack in the NY subways. Do they ever revise their goddamned playbook?

Bush's choice of Miers for SCOTUS is the result of Rove taking the last few days off

Oh, please. Bush does nothing with Rove's approval.

"...Joe and Valerie are the ones going down"

For what, asshole? For what?

Apparently, your "ass-kissing" universe is one where the Wilsons are somehow guilty of something and Bush, Rove and all the other scumbags are heroes.

So.....once again, asshole......what are they going down for?

u jest:

Take yet another look at what I wrote, then re-read your reply to me. Then, point out where I connect you with racism. Except for the fact that no one else here even hinted at any kind of a racial connection by anyone, where is it that you are slimed as a racist?

Race had no bearing in this comment thread until you had brought the topic up (and in an inappropriate way), so who is now the twister of the innocent comment?

'Pull that race card out of your sleeve' hardly equates to 'j.west is a card-carrying racist Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan'.

I appeal to the other commenters for adjudication. They will decide who is correct.

We need to work together to bring truth, justice and the American Way even to posters with bad pen names.

j.w.:

Have you been reading Bush's latest, and hopefully only book, How to Speak Proper 'Merican"?

Yeah, come on Wild West, tell us what joe and valerie are going down for. lolololololol
enlighten us all. we're waiting!

pessimist,

I thought you were refering to my jab at Steve for infering that black members of the grand jury would vote any differently in the wake of Katrina.

My post was meant to show that even an innocent comment (like Bill Bennett's) could be twisted to sound racist.

J.West:

Only an idiot would think that the Wilsons will be indicted.

My comments about a guilty party not incriminating himself has nothing to do with Judy's testimony. It is simply the right way to deal with law enforcement and prosecutors.

The next time you want to run off at the mouth, bring your kneepads!

I appeal to the other commenters for adjudication. They will decide who is correct.

The members of this court do hereby find Mr. J. West guilty of propagating gross distortion of the truth, general mayhem, and, most heinously, voting for Bush twice. Before reading the sentence, Mr. West, do you wish to recant your statements, avoid known Republicans, grow your hair long, and smoke dope? Do you, Mr. West?

That is a pretty funny pic.

I will stipulate, after rereading your comment concerning what a grand jury panel should do, that your comment was a correct one. A grand jury should decide based on the law and not on their personal feelings - about anything. You have my apologies for any discord.

But we here in Los Angeles still remember Brenda Moran and the OJ jurors who ignored the evidence because they didn't like the prosecution team (nor should they have). Either way, they still took an oath to base their decision on the evidence presented. We thus know that what a jury panel should do depends entirely upon those who make up that panel obeying their oath.

To sum up: while maybe Steve shouldn't have mentioned the racial makeup of the jury, it isn't unreasonable to draw the conclusion that it just ight make a difference. It did keep OJ off Death Row. It might put Karl (and others) on the hot seat.

For this we have the Republican tradition of ignoring the law when it becomes inconvenient to thank. It's been going on since 1860, and it hasn't stopped yet.

To all the casual readers….

If you’re not fully versed in the Plame case, the only known facts are gleaned from the Miller/Cooper appeal in their attempt not to testify.

These sole known facts are:

"the new subpoenas "stem[med] from legitimate needs due to an unanticipated shift in the grand jury's investigation,""

"that, "considering the gravity of the suspected crime and the low value of the leaked information, no privilege bars the subpoenas.""

From these facts, we can form some conclusions:

The original investigation, which was:

"In the fall of 2003, the government began an investigation into whether federal law had been violated in connection with the unauthorized disclosure by government employees of information concerning the identity of a purported CIA employee."

Took an “unanticipated shift”. If the investigation is still just as it is written above, was the reference to the “unanticipated shift” just a joke that Fitzgerald was playing on the judges? I think not.

Why would Judge Tatel refer to the “low value of the leaked information” if the leaked information was high value, CIA secret agent identity type information? The answer is, it was fairly common knowledge about Valerie.

The judge refers to the “gravity of the suspected crime”. We don’t know what this means yet, but it sure sounds like something serious.

Place all this into the background of what anyone can tell about Joe Wilson.

Even the 9/11 commission found that what he reported back to the CIA after his trip to Niger tended to bolster the yellowcake claims rather than refute them.

Joe was working for the Kerry campaign immediately after (and perhaps before) his NYT “revelation” that Bush (as he claimed) was not telling the truth about Niger.

Joe let slip some interesting information concerning the forged documents concerning Niger – something he would not have had access to if not for Valerie.

Using classified information to undermine a presidential election is a crime.

URL to court documents: http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2004/0responses/2004-1507.resp.html

j.west wrote:
Joe let slip some interesting information concerning the forged documents concerning Niger – something he would not have had access to if not for Valerie.

Interesting theory, but I think you're delusional.

Here's a much more likely interpretation of the "unexpected shift" in the investigation: Fitzgerald has uncovered the identity of the person who forged the Niger documents, and it is someone in the administration.

If your allegations were true, then why is Karl the one doing the sweating? Your linked documents are over a year old - have you nothing newer to offer?

In addition, if Bu$hCo outer Joe Wilson were up to something as you allege, wouldn't the lap dog press be all over it? Bill Clinton gets Monica's oral attention, and the media can't cover it in enough graphic detail, but George dodges Air National Guard service, and the media is instead worried about Al Gore's 'claims' of 'founding' the Internet. They wouldn't let Joe Wilson have a pass if doing so meant wrecking their White House gravy train.

It isn't washing, j. Your evidence isn't holding up. Find a new cause for all that energy.

No, the 9/11 commission found no such thing regarding bolstering the yellowcake fraud.

And it most certainly was not common knowledge about Ms. Plame. In fact, it's completely ludicrous to throw that nugget out there, and expect people to take you seriously.

And that last bit sounds like something handed down via drudge and powerass et al, i.e. a load of crap.

pessimist,etc.

I have no newer documents, or any older documents.

This is the only document in the Plame case.

That might need repeating, this time a bit louder...

THIS IS THE ONLY DOCUMENT IN THE PLAME CASE!

Everything else you have been seeing, reading or hearing is speculative bullshit.

If there is a scenario you can fit within the four corners of this document, without leaving out those facts that don't fit, let's hear it.

In my previous posts on the subject, I mentioned the fact that if there was any guilt on the part of anyone in the administration, they wouldn't be acting like they are now. Rove isn't sweating anything. You have seen what real criminals do when there is a problem - lie, delay, challenge every ruling, refuse to testify, demonize the prosecutor etc. Everyone in this administration has been totally cooperative and no one has even hinted (besides Al) that Fitzgerald is bias.

Steve,

Thanks again for the updated version.

(The integrity force is strong with this one)

Speculative bullshit? You mean like those two party hacks Bu$h wants to be Supreme Court Justices?

I fail to see how - even under King George - every court in the land would be swayed by speculative bullshit to the point that absolutely no one would reveal the truth. If speculative bullshit were the only evidence Fitzgerald had to work with, no court in the land would accept his indictment.

I expect that once Fitagerald's indictments are accepted, you aren't going to have an argument against Joe Wilson anymore. What do you propose to do then - take Ru$h to task for daring to question Dick Cheney about Miers qualifications?

Talk about speculative bullshit!

west, you're as dime a dozen asswipe..you need a fix of reality dumbshit...

pessimist,

I can't keep up with you.

How did Miers get into this conversation? I don't know anything about her or her qualifications.

Fitzgerald has some great evidence as pointed out in the appeal. They don't explain what it is, but the judge sure seems to think it's solid.

All I'm trying to say is that the commonly held theory of nailing Rove and Libby sure doesn't fit the only known facts of the case.

All I'm trying to say is that the commonly held theory of nailing Rove and Libby sure doesn't fit the only known facts of the case.

Well, it sure fits with Judge Tatel's reference to the "plot against Wilson," since barring a double-personality theory by the prosecution, it's difficult to see how Wilson could be in a plot against himself.

It takes a real tool to defend something like the outing of a CIA clandestine officer.
Something tells me that j.west will be a real sad sack when the corrupt Bush administration goes swirling down the crapper.

Josh Marshall has three posts deconstructing the weasel words of Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, regarding Rove and the Target Letter. talkingpointsmemo.com

At the Next Hurrah, emptywheel has an exhaustively detail history of TreasonGate and it's key timeline events

this blogg has become jwestcoaster. com
you folks feeding this troll need to stop.

How did Miers get into this conversation?

Miers wasn't the point of my comment. You getting mad at Ru$h for daring to question the pRedzident of Vice was.

Speculative bullshit indeed!

Bozo J. West said:

Using classified information to undermine a presidential election is a crime.

I know of no case law to support this claim.

What is true however, is that when someone who has a TS/SCI clearance (like Karl Rove) becomes aware of unauthorized possession of classified information by someone who is not read into a particular classified program (like a reporter), the cleared employee is required to report the security violation to his or her facility security office. Failure to do so is a crime, as specified by the classified information nondisclosure agreement which is signed by everyone in the U.S. government who has access to classified information.

There is no evidence that Rove made this required notification when, according to his attorney, he was told of Plame's identity by a reporter.

this blogg has become jwestcoaster. com

Hey, he's staying on topic. He's saying crazy things, but they're on-topic crazy things. As long as we're having a conversation about Rove's obvious crimes, I don't see how we suffer by addressing stew.j's "points."

Lawrence O'Donnell: Plamegate: The Next Step

If Karl Rove's lawyer, Bob Luskin, is still as easy to read as he has been since I broke the story that his client was Matt Cooper's source, then we now know that Rove has received a target letter from Patrick Fitzgerald. How do we know it? Luskin refuses to deny it.

Fitzgerald does not have to send Rove or anyone else a target letter before indicting him. The only reason to send target letters now is that Fitzgerald believes one or more of his targets will flip and become a prosecution witness at the pre-indictment stage. A veteran prosecutor told me, "If Fitzgerald is sending target letters at the end of his investigation, those are just invitations to come in and work out a deal."
Prosecutors prefer pre-indictment plea bargaining to post-indictment because they have more to offer you, like not being indicted at all or downgrading your status to unindicted co-conspirator. And pre-indictment plea bargaining can greatly enrich the indictments that the prosecutor then obtains. If, for example, Fitzgerald has a weak case against, say, Scooter Libby, imagine how much Rove's cooperation might strengthen that case.
If no one RSVPs to Fitzgerald's invitations, look for indictments as early as next week. If anyone does sit down with Fitzgerald, he will probably have to move to extend the grand jury, which now has only thirteen working days left in its term.
Prediction: at least three high level Bush Administration personnel indicted and possibly one or more very high level unindicted co-conspirators.

dj,

I had seen the "plot against Wilson" quote and read it at the time to be a past tense reference to an alleged event.

Let me go back and re-read the context and get back to you.

thelma,

Perhaps you can't find any handy case law on using classifed documents to circumvent the electoral process of the United States, but I think we could find a clever enough prosecutor to find some statute that would apply.

Judith,

dj may call himself "moonbat", but Lawrence O'Donnell is the real thing.

Oh, and dj, thanks for sticking up for legitimate trollness.

According to this NPR story on Rove's latest round ot testimony, Luskin has outright denied that Rove has recieved a target letter.

But given Judith's analysis of how federal prosecutors typically operate, that doesn't come as a surprise.

Do you think Rove or Libby is more of a target?

According to this NPR story on Rove's latest round ot testimony, Luskin has outright denied that Rove has recieved a target letter.

Yes, but he has not denied that Rove or Luskin has been notified of "target" status; nor has he denied that Luskin received a target letter in his role as Rove's counsel. Trust me--Rove is not going to sleep soundly tonight.

I think it is a checkmate move. Rove does not know what Fitz knows. So all Fitz has to ask is "What did the President know and when did he know it" Rove has to tell the truth because he has no idea what Fitz has. If Rove lies, checkmate if Rove tells the truth, checkmate.

ahem -- that was Judith cut 'n paste.

Fat Kar: nothing will happen to rove unless he is sworn in. so far, he hasn't been.

Sara
I respectfully disagree. You cannot lie to a Grand Jury.

housewives?

To j. west:

Go back to the LeftCoaster for August 25, "Los Angeles Times Summarizes Plame Case To Date," and re-read the posted comments. You asked for info on this case, because you were unfamiliar with the details. I left a response, to which you resonded.

But I didn't see your response until August 27, and then left comment #24, the final comment, so far, on that thread. Go back and read my final comment there.

By the way, you should really stop listening to Lush Limbo. He dropped out of college after one semester, and it shows. He may be articulate, but he has no critical reasoning skills whatsoever.

To be fair, you could argue this either way: by accepting the previous offer now, Fitz may be grasping for something after the Miller testimony, or he could be aiming to call Rove's bluff and try and trap him with the testimony.

I don't follow this. The legal wisdom on the situation seems to be that you NEVER let your client go back in there except out of sheer desperation, especially without a grant of immunity. So your second scenario doesn't wash--if Fitz wanted him back in under those circs, why wouldn't Rove just say "On second thought I don't want to testify again"? Just doesn't parse.

what doesn't "parse"? or is it who doesn't "parse". Toss in a few words that make you look smart, like high-fulitin' and ummm. . . nevermind.

Give me somehting I can sink my teeth into at this hour. j.west has given Soto enough hell -- are you trying to pile on? Doesn't LGF need you?

j. west is HILARIOUS.

I've decided that's why I like Left Coaster, we get the real crazies, right-wing loonies who don't even stick to their talking points but actually believe they have it all figured out in contradiction to everything we've heard so far.

Those are some real original theories there, j. west. I commend you for coming up with this wing nuttery.

Look, this isn't hard to figure out:

Rove testifies >
Miller sits in jail and then testifies >
Rove comes back to testify again = perjury trap.

That's it, no hidden agenda against Joe Wilson. Right now, this is just a plain old perjury trap against Rove. I can't say how far up this reaches, but it's obvious Wilson's not a target. Good luck with that crazy pet theory, j. west. It's an original, for sure.

I've decided that's why I like Left Coaster, we get the real crazies, right-wing loonies who . . .actually believe they have it all figured out in contradiction to everything we've heard so far.

It's so true! The thing is that I wonder sometimes whether, somewhere, the trolls are even crrrazier. Y'know--you would start to worry about yourself if you became a regular, but it might be interesting to stop by. But that way lies madness.

fat kar: I hope you are right. So far as I can follow, no one in the higher-ups was sworn-in. They gave "information only" statements. One can lie to the grand jury..it's being caught that's the trick. I hope they get these guys. Don't forget who Fitz's boss is.... hello...another Buddy!

I think it was clear that I cut and pasted that post. The author's name is at the top.

For documents on the Valerie Plame treason by the Bush Regime and the Downing Street Minutes and Memos and action items for Impeachment go to the excellent website and forum:

afterdowningstreet.org

Help with evidence of whether or not Democrats and Republicans and the media are fulfilling their duty to the American people to uphold the Constitution and the protections it is supposed to offer to US citizens, incl. letters or emails you may have received back from Congress or media or posts on Congresspersons sites, bills they have sponsored, etc. you can help with this timeline:

SoapBox4Truth.org

One of Rep. Conyers' bloggers created the above site and to exchange information go to Congressman Conyers' blog and his main site has action items on the push for honest elections and other important matters to preserving our Democracy:

Conyer's Blog

Conyer's Action Items

"Remember one thing about this grand jury: it is comprised of a significant number of African Americans."

You don't mean "is comprised of", you mean "includes".