Could they make my Fitzmas by fulfilling this fraud while using official government diplomatic communications? In such a case, take a look at Title 18, Section 798. Oh well, a guy can dream.
Posted by Ron Russell at December 3, 2005 12:25 AMEven I, jaded hater of junta that I am, would have been hardpressed to believe that these guys would be so stupid as to forge (and badly forge) documents to get us into war. But then they probably figured - correctly - that nobody would find out. And probably nobody would have if Bob Novak hadn't been so eager to write his little "scoop."
Posted by Meteor Blades at December 3, 2005 01:05 AMI doubt it is Fitz making people more talkative. He doesn't yet seem to have hit the Niger forgeries (although he might, once he digs through all the lying Bush SAOs). But it might be the press coverage this has gotten. Did they get Hadley back in to talk about his Pollari visit? Did they finally try to talk to Rocco Martino? Did they notice the French are now talking? Hell, eR's work disproves their preveious claim.
So unless Hadley or Bolton made a big deal with Fitz to avoid indictment, then I doubt this is directly connected to Fitz.
Although when Plame, Larry Franklin, Chalabi, Niger forgeries, and Abramoff all coalesce into one it will be a truly sublime moment. Dangerous, but sublime.
Posted by emptywheel at December 3, 2005 06:22 AMI can't allow myself to dream that big. But it's a pretty thought.
Posted by dj moonbat at December 3, 2005 06:39 AM
"... whether the forgeries were instigated by u.s. citizens...."
ahh. now we are getting somewhere.
there had to be a feedback loop between italy and the u.s. adn i'll nominate michael ledeen as spokesman for the west indies side of the ocean.
there is no way highly trained intelligence analysts and officials let crap like those forgeries get by them unless they are in on the deal or were by-passed.
let's speculate on a feedback loop that included AEI(private plot-and-scheme tank), INR (state department (mis)intelligence arm/bolton), and cooperating italian defense dept and sismi officials. we might even throw in israelit intellignece/black operation.
why did martino go not once but twice to the us embassy with the niger docs? why was burba instructed to go to the american embassy with the forgeries? does anyone really believe that martino and la signora dreamed this clumsy effort up by themsleves?
how about a scheme designed to start a little gossip, nothing more, which gossip would not be detected as such or challenged until it was too late, i.e., u.s. troops were in baghdad?
Posted by orionATL at December 3, 2005 07:05 AMThese stories also end up in the United States media as well. Follow the money and what is done with it. It is done under the defense department which enables hiding it.
Posted by dick muesser at December 3, 2005 07:09 AMand by the way
does anyone else think it surprising or odd that alberto gonzales is letting so menay potentially damging things happen at the dept of jsutice.
i thought you always put in an attorney general who would make sure the doj does not cause your administration any more grief than necessary.
is the perm secretary in charge rather than the minister these days?
Posted by orionATL at December 3, 2005 07:13 AMWhere are the facts? This is 100% conjecture and wishful thinking. Someone should send this to the NY Times. It could be a lead story there also.
Posted by FresnoBob at December 3, 2005 07:17 AMIt appears f-bob hasn't read eriposte's series. Bad form, bob.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 3, 2005 07:21 AMIn addition to the other people mention, I want to hear directly from that overseas CIA agent that saw(?) and summed up the documents for the folks back home.
And emptywheel as usual nails it with this comment. Although when Plame, Larry Franklin, Chalabi, Niger forgeries, and Abramoff all coalesce into one it will be a truly sublime moment. Dangerous, but sublime.
When RNC/Buscho created worlds collide. Josh Marshall's tectonic moving plate story description sounds about accurate with all the info we are learning about now.
Only concern...will this be yet another whitewash from the FBI and republican controlled congress? Come on media people, there is a major story just waiting to be broken.
Posted by emal at December 3, 2005 07:25 AMOrion:
You're absolutely right there's a feedback look. But please maintain the distinction between INR and Bolton's shop--they're totally different entities. The loop probably went something like:
Chalabi has them forged
Ledeen plants them with Ghobanifar who gives them to SISMI
CIA gets the intell from SISMI, cleaned up by someone associated with Pollari
Someone at CIA (possible Fleitz, but by no means necessarily) monitors the reception of the documents and gives Pollari-SISMI tips on how to improve the leaks coming in
SISMI gives them to Rocco who tries (unsuccessfully) to give them to CIA Rome, and gives them first to France (Summer 2002--who according to the most recent Repubblica gives a copy to CIA) and later to Burba
Someone in Rome ensures the documents come into the US through Bolton's office where they can be withheld from anyone who would discredit them (except for the one INR analyst--that was probably a mistake)--also, Bolton probably ensures that the only people who get the forgeries at CIA are those who already got them during the summer, who can be counted on not to act on them
Posted by emptywheel at December 3, 2005 07:39 AMSob. The poor little itty bitty US was tricked and bamboolzed by a sole confidence man, and that's why they went to war. Pass me a hanky.
Posted by Bob Morris at December 3, 2005 07:56 AMfresnoboob isn't smart enough to read eriposte's series..learn how to crayon within the lines yet boob?
Posted by headxray at December 3, 2005 07:56 AMFresnoBoob, the fact being presented here (and it is a fact, not an opinion) is that the FBI has reopened its investigation into the Niger yellowcake forgeries.
This is a new development.
Whatever attendant speculation there might be in the post, there is no way that this is good news for the Bush Intelligence Manipulation Team, which got your beloved Clown-in-Chief to ballyhoo this complete, known fraud in his State of the Union address, remember?
Posted by euzoius at December 3, 2005 08:08 AMI haven't read eriposte's series either -- way too much information for my feeble brain to digest.
Seriously -- this is such a complex story, it's really hard for it to break through into the mainstream. But an FBI investigation can have the effect of focusing the mind, as they say . . .
Posted by ck at December 3, 2005 08:47 AMF-Bob,
Here are the facts. The GOP lied us into a war that costing us dearly and making worse all the problems it was supposed to solve
Posted by The Truth at December 3, 2005 08:58 AMWhen reports came out that Fitzgerald had asked and received info thru FBI on the Niger papers that must have been an interesting moment for the FBI, the White House and the forgers ... because if we know nothing else about Fitzgerald, we do know that he is tenacious in connecting the dots and the White House is feeling the burn already of underestimating his investigations. Scary post over at Wayne Madsen today.
Posted by mainsailset at December 3, 2005 09:03 AMSteve,
Thanks for posting the article. I doubt that Fitzgerald had much to do with this re-opening, but then what do I know?
Posted by eriposte at December 3, 2005 09:09 AMmainsailset, I thought it was shown that Fitz did not request info on the forgeries. Anyone know the scoop?
Posted by iamcoyote at December 3, 2005 09:16 AMMore than me on this pal, more than me.
Posted by Steve Soto at December 3, 2005 09:17 AMI would submit that eriposte had something to do with the reopening of the investigation, but that may just pride talking.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 3, 2005 09:28 AM"may be" actually...
Posted by iamcoyote at December 3, 2005 09:28 AMIt's very possible that Eriposte's research re-opened this investigation and if it leads to an indictment of Ledeen, I say kudos to you, Eriposte, very big kudos to you.
Posted by sf at December 3, 2005 09:55 AMThe new MSM mantra -- We don't do investigative reporting anymore; when we're not taking stenography from the GOP, we read TheLeftCoaster, FireDogLake, and TheNextHurrah to find out what's really going on!
Posted by ck at December 3, 2005 10:20 AMOh what a beautiful morning...such good news! As given the current administration, I doubt highly that the FBI take the unusual step of re-opening an investigation that they had determined earlier was going nowhere, it appears to me that someone at the FBI found some new information, which they believed to be compelling. This is a very good sign.
Kudos to everyone here who has been writing on this story, and of course, especially eriposte, whose analysis has been informing so many of us who have tried to spread this story. It appears that somehow it got to the people who needed to hear it, so thanks to you all.
Posted by Wordie at December 3, 2005 10:41 AMJust Google'd Niger Papers Fiztgerald and several articles come up that Nato Intelligence Sources confirmed to UPI that Fitzgerald had requested and received copies of the Niger forgeries/papers. Thanks iamcoyote for keeping me honest though.
Posted by mainsailset at December 3, 2005 01:44 PMwow ew!
that is a clear chain of "custody".
haven't seen anything like this before. i'd love to read more.
Posted by orionATL at December 4, 2005 09:10 AMThanks, mainsail, the last I'd heard was that Fitz wasn't planning to get into the forgery case at all. So much info was flying during the period before the indictment was announced, I never figured out where we ended up.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 4, 2005 09:36 AMLast thought. Try saying this outloud to youself very slowly and let it sink in: "Rove, Cheney, Libby and Hadley all knew the Niger papers were forgeries." Now, let yourself ask "when did they know and how did they know"