I would like to approach a topic which I hope does not offend anyone, because after all, liberals believe in the freedom of speech (although you all know I have problems with a few of the troll's freedom of speech LOL). There are a couple of people who post here who are obviously intelligent and certainly contribute to the success of this Blog. However, the continuing use of vulgarity in every post only diminishes their message. If those of us who post here want to be taken seriously by others and those who come here to just read, it might benefit this Blog to curtail some of the vulgarity. Just a thought.

"it might benefit this Blog to curtail some of the vulgarity." Meant to say "it might benefit this Blog if you curtail some of your vulgarity.

I sometimes use vulgarity, obscenity even. But I must admit that every time I do, and every time I read somebody else's vulgarity, I remember what my grandmother always said: cursing is for people with small vocabularies. She didn't get past the 8th grade. But her vocabulary contained no curse words.

Meteor Blades, well I have to include myself in my post, as I am frequently heard using a four letter word.

UK too promotes Iraq war propaganda?

http://aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10025

If propaganda is spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause (better known as lies), Americans have been fed propaganda for five years. The article above suggest that the reason so many reporters have been killed in this War was to stop those who would print the truth.

Judith,

Five years? Seriously?

judith..i believe there is some merit to what you say..i do believe there is a difference between swearing and vulgarities...i swear often to amplify and illustrate how i feel about people who support this administrations actions...makes me feel better to call them fucking morons instead of just morons..they are fucking morons...

Judith, I appreciate your comment as well. While I have been known to use the occasional profanity here, there are some regular posters who only post profanity in response to trolls. Profanity as an expletive is one thing, profanity just to respond is another. However, freedom of speech compels me to ignore those posters.

Number 3....again??????

But I thought #3 was caught back in May of this year?

Oooops apparently not .

But hey I thought Iran had #3?

More searching reveals (according to Brad DeLong via First Draft)that there have been reports of at least Five Al Qaeda #3's caught or captured. Today's allegation and report predator attack on this #3 makes the sixth #3 captured or destroyed. Confused...or more bs from the same group of lying liars and paid for propaganda machine known as Bushco?

Either this is another Lincoln Group blowback story (my bet is that it is, and that some Al qaeda guy was caught but maybe not the #3 person). Or, Al Qaeda is very quick to fill the #3 vacancy position as fast as we capture/kill that person (which I thought Bush said was impossible since "we're on the hunt" for Bin Laden who is now "on the run" and can't regroup).

Did I mention how much I dislike propaganda efforts by our country and the willing media that will report this without mentioning how many #3's to date we have allegedly captured/killed? Or a willingly duped media that fails to report and hold Bush responsible for the fact that the #1 and #2 Al Qaeda leaders continue to remain at large for over 1545 days (courtesy Needlenose counter) since 9/11, even though bin Laden is wanted Dead or Alive?

From a Tennessee girl to all her friends in the blogosphere:

http://www.toonedin.com/movies/WhiteTrashXmas.html

As for the profanity issues...guilty of using it myself based on the same rationale that dennis mentions. Since this forum does not allow people to read body language or see facial expressions to convey their true feelings (generally disgust or outrage) I think it can be necessary at times.

As for those profanity-laden posts, I guess I am more of the mindset, if you don't like them don't read them ...just as I often find myself doing with certain troll post I often skim over or avoid reading. But in the spirit of cooperation, I will try to be more careful.

"i believe there is some merit to what you say..i do believe there is a difference between swearing and vulgarities"

Dennis and Ann are right. Swearing is one thing, vulgarities is another. It is the vulgarities that I was addressing, not cussing. Actually, these posts don't bother me, as I skim through them to find out what they are saying through the vulgarity. My concern is that there may be people reading this Blog, especially with all the exposure Eriposte has received, and I want us as a Blog to be taken seriously. I just think sometimes the message does get diminshed.

James E. Powell, cuss away. We have earned that right.

Judith,

I agree with you about the profanity, although I don't see too much of it here.

I love reading the left coaster because the thoughtful, well-researched and well-writtent essays, and the polite, reasoned comments from the readers.

This is one of the best sites on the web, imho.

I agree with emal - ignore the trolls if possible

"or more bs from the same group of lying liars and paid for propaganda machine known as Bushco?"

Emal, it's just so damn hard to keep all those lies straight. Bush&Co are beginning to get their lies mixed up. Next year we will catch #3 again, betcha.

I have been guilty of profanity before. Sometimes I think it is necessary. Emal has it just right.

Since this forum does not allow people to read body language or see facial expressions to convey their true feelings (generally disgust or outrage) I think it can be necessary at times.

That said, certian posters have a propensity to lace their post with non-stop profanity. Im afraid I have to say it cheapens the discourse. This blog has had some sucess in adding to the national discourse, but non stop rants into the echo chamber tend to conspire to nuetralize this trend.

Since this is an open thread, I would like to address trolls, what constitutes a troll, and what would this place be like with no dissenting voices.

In my mind, a troll is someone who does a drive-by posting simply to disrupt the thread. Vomiting out talking points, inabilty to debate with-out resulting to ad-hoc personal attacks are more signs of proffessional trolldom.Examples of idiots like these are bendito, hindu, and the now defunct j East(i know).

Sometimes when a thread is slow, or doesn't seem very interesting, a drive-by trolling can kind of liven things up and result in more 'hits' for Steve. I know when I peruse a new board, I like to see more than 1 or 2 hits on two day old threads. And a dead thread troll can be kicked and punched with impunity, which is kind of a nice stress relief.

When the converstation is serious though, trolls are annoying. And when people respond during those times...it is equally annoying. But in my mind, if the poster is responding to thread and is willing to defend his/her position, then that poster is not a troll no matter how far off from our individual worldviews he/she may be.

So I am glad for dissenting voices who are willing to stand in for some abuse. The allow us to practice our debating and rationalizing skills. They give us some insight into how the food units on the other side are programed to think.

Because a thread that provides no new information and is just another hooray for us thing is frankly as boring as watching two old people do the nasty.

I dont mean to be on my high horse here. I know I have been guilty of all sorts of blogging high crimes and mistameanors. God knows some of my exchanges with the pretzal-boy back in the day, and more recently with the bagel, have been thread wasters.I am counting on the other denzians of this realm to give me feedback. Which is part of the conversation that Judith started on this open thread.

In short, this is Steves party, but the reporters from E are covering it. How do we want to act, and do we care what the newest arrivals think?

I consider this place my political home, where I feel most comfertable. Thats not to say it couldn't be better.

Either this is another Lincoln Group blowback story (my bet is that it is, and that some Al qaeda guy was caught but maybe not the #3 person). Or, Al Qaeda is very quick to fill the #3 vacancy position as fast as we capture/kill that person.

Some people have attributed Al Qaeda's slippery nature to its "cell" structure. Clearly, their real strength lies in the fact that everybody in the organization is #3 on the org chart.

Clearly, their real strength lies in the fact that everybody in the organization is #3 on the org chart.

According to Al Qaeda's human relations department, this gives everyone a feeling of shared enpowerment.

Which leads to a happy motivated workforce.

i have been known to swear, cuss, profane(?) and blaspheme, but i am reminded of what kurt vonnegut said (not sure how much it applies to blogs):

when you curse, you give people who don't agree with you an excuse not to listen.

I was thinking about the USA's new intelligence structure design. Don't we now have about 15 #3's.
dj, That was hilarious! Now we can always be assured of capturing #3's, since #3 was just captured!
Sounds good in the news!

I am one who uses vulgarities..I simply can't stomach any longer what the fascist right wing of this country is doing to it..when I see a troll(even muck) defending that right wing I see complicity with it..in short trolls make me want to vomit and to get revenge...part of what I have been doing is to use cheney/rove methods on trolls..since they back that sort of behavior it is good enough for them..having said this I will tone down my replies in the spirit of cooperation with what Judith suggested...

I use vulgarity out of habit. A construction and military background lends itself to a lot of cussing. Meteor Blades, is right, It's a substitution for words I'm to lazy to think of.
English and grammar were never my strong points.
SnarkyShark and headxray you both covered it for me. Judith, I will try and comply, until I can't help myself, and a good rant swells up!

I simply can't stomach any longer what the fascist right wing of this country is doing to it..

I feel you man.

Having these discussions is changing the conventional wisdom. CheneyCo is going down in flames and there aint no stopping it.

You and me and Steve and even Muckitty-Muck have played our infasmitle but neccessary parts. Be proud of that role in what is history being written.

Were just talking about giving the old joint a new coat of paint, maybe polishing the wood a bit.

dj, thanks for the clarification.
Clearly, their real strength lies in the fact that everybody in the organization is #3 on the org chart.

Oh so that's how it's done...since Bushco seems to use the rationale in all things they do that are undemocratic, uncivilized, and inhumane, that it is okay to stoop to the level of the actions of the evildoers because that is all they understand and we are at War ....then why doesn't Bushco make all our evildoer fighters #3's?

Judith,
You are right in some of your concerns, but I guess bloglord Steve and his front page writers are (imho) ultimately and rightfully responsible for this decision and as to if certain language will be tolerated. And in terms of vulgarity vs. profanity...good point, but once again sometimes I think a vulgarity is warranted. As I said I certainly will make an effort to watch my language, now if only I had an editor for all other language abuses I am many times guilty of ....(like ending a sentence with a preposition).

As to the thoughts about trolls, I have mixed feelings depending on my mood when I arrive here. Often the ones posting here don't offer anything and provide nothing in the way of supporting credible links or facts. Plus they generally offer nothing I haven't heard by watching 5 minutes of mainstream media news.

But since we are talking about trolls I will tell you the most useless ones (who shall remain nameless but we all know who I am talking about) are the one thread hit and run type..typical chickenhawk.

Anyway I appreciate the forum to air my grievances (Let the Festivus holiday spirit begin in earnest!!), thoughts, and learn things. And not to sound patronizing, this blog (as leftydem noted)is one of if not the best out here for that purpose.

hmmm...that tag was supposed to end after it

Blogger Gremlins?

Judith has brought up an issue that I have been struggling with myself, namely profanity. On one hand it is best to say what you're feeling and as noted we can't read facial expressions or body language over the net. OTOH, too much profanity reduces the effectiveness of your arguement by making your words too common. After all, one of the definitions of vulgar is common.

So, the delimna remains, how in these times of disgusting excess do we adequitely express strong emotions without reducing an our arguement to simple, primitive cursing. FWIW, the standard that I would suggest is to proofread yourself critically before posting with the question in mind of will my point(s) be remembered or just the too common word(s) within it?

Good one, dj; nice chuckle with my tea.

Judith, I understand completely about the vulgarity. I indulge in it regularly, as do we all. We certainly wouldn't want to drive away our impassioned and beloved co-commenters, but there are times when I've felt a reasoned, well-written post has been undermined by an expletive-laden personal attack on another commenter. No matter how much a troll might deserve a verbal ass-kicking, it's more effective if done with subtle savagery, rather than overt ad hominum callouts. Emal, you can name Bendito, since it's a 'bot and not human at all, you won't hurt it's feelings!

Of course, anyone wishing to cuss for the fun of it is more than welcome at Low & Left where the atmosphere is less formal and we take our ad hominums seriously! With TLC getting media attention, we'd like to give the appearance, at least, that this is a respectable blog. All hail the Bloglord! We're not worthy!

D@&* that *&%$# link, here is the address: http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Man, rlp, tone it down! heh

So I can expect no more explitive laced rants? That would actually be a nice change. I appreaciate a lively debate also and would much rather stay away from having to respond in kind. It is much more gratifying to expose your hypocracy.

fresnoboob..coming from one in diapers like yourself that is pretty comical...

Did anybody hear that?

Very thoughtful and reflective posts re vulgarity. Bravo to all!

I will try to remember that this site is the work of many people who have put a lot of time, thought and effort into it, and would like the joint to be respectable!

But remember that Mozart possessed a sense of humor that bordered on the vulgar.

A true witticism can contain vulgarity, and I sure wouldn't want to lose the wit of some of the posters through self censorship.

My thanks to Judith for raising the issue.

Hear what?

It is much more gratifying to expose your hypocracy.

Bring it.

Make sure you pack a lunch.

Well head x-ray didnt wait long before resorting to an Ad-Hoc attack, very disciplined he is.

And I would note that FresnoBoob and Crape Diem both appear to have the same problem spelling "hypocrisy".

Very suspicious.

Are they one and the same poster, or is this word simply continually misspelled on all the reactionary sites they both visit?

OH!!! Yet another conspiricy. It's all part of my strategery

fresnoboob my comment was one rove would be proud of..I said I would refrain from vulgarity..not the truth about you..get a clue..take a hike...

Snarky, I noticed that, too. I blame Bush who has made stupidity "cool."

Oops, that was meant for euzoius. But Snarky, you're right, too.

Well head x-ray didnt wait long before resorting to an Ad-Hoc attack

Sorry Bob...U r the opposition. When you come and hang out at a place where your worldview is litaraly hated, the best you can hope for is not having your mother dispareged as a crack smoking daytime-whore.
Go to little green snotballs and say one thing out of line, see what that gets you.

As the oppo, you get judged by your own character. Occasionaly Muck says something truly worthy, never gets personal, and is doggedly persistant.
Some may hate him on general purposes, but TLC without him is like heaven with no hell.

Everything I discussed above applies to the left wing peanut gallery.

Oppos have to create their own respectibility.

Well head x-ray didnt wait long before resorting to an Ad-Hoc attack, very disciplined he is.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and speculate that FresnoBoob doesn't know what "Ad-Hoc" means. (Hint: it's not a member of the Beastie Boys.)

dj, I noticed that, too. What an amusing little troll.

And I would note that FresnoBoob and Crape Diem both appear to have the same problem spelling "hypocrisy".

No, no; you've got it all wrong. Just as "democracy" is government of the people, "hypocracy" is government of the hypos.

I agree that vulgarity is overused, and it seems more comment in the left side of the blogosphere, which makes does not help us at all.

maybe we should teach fresno boob the difference between "ad-hoc" and ad hominem"...naw let him remain an ignorant slug...

"Ad hominem" isn't a rapper, either, FresnoBoob.

Judith, Meteor Blades, various civic-minded blogtopians wishing to maintain some seblance of civil discourse:

I long ago exhausted phrases that adequately and accurately described the jackals in power and what they do daily to rob people's lives of liberty, health, prosperity and happiness.

Mr. Peanut is in your camp of lamenting that a good vocabulary (and mind) such as mine is being put to waste not continually thinking up socially acceptable ways to describe this administration. However, Mr. Peanut is sincerely non-partisan and more involved with issues than with politics so he can only lament circumstances rather than individuals. Since we both agree that cussing is part of our toolbox to convey something accurately, including with the passion behind it, I continue to use profanity and obscenity when referring to the fucking weasels in the Smirk & Sneer administration, but am careful not to let trash talk get strewn in my other conversations.

Lets talk about vulgarity.

Why do I use vulgarity? I'll tell you why: Because we live in vulgar and profane times, and we are dealing with the most vulgar, profane, soulless ghouls this nation has seen in decades. The rightwingers in this nation are antithetical to everything good about America. They are vulgar, pathetic creatures, and they are unworthy of civil discourse.

And, most importantly, they are COWARDS.

Nay, they are fucking worthless shitspewing ghouls streaked piss yellow with cowardice. See, that was a far more accurate characterization of the Beniditos, MuckDogs, Bagleys, etc. who are the poster children of why abortion should be available on demand. Simply put, the world would be better off without their malignant worldview which, if you examine it, converts the seven deadly sins into the seven pillars of virtue. Yes, they are complicit in the Christ-killing bile which degrades this nation. As far as I'm concerned, they are the flip side of the devil's Islamofascist coin.

In a perfect world, the wingnuts and the Islamofreaks would just finish each other off without the rest of us being dragged into the muck. But that ain't gonna happen. No, they will always drag in the moderate and tolerant to do their fighting and dying as they fan the flames of hate and reap the benefits of death and greed. You see, Osama Bin Laden and the Islamists are not Bendito's et al's enemy. We are...because we are nonbelievers in his fervor. I want the terrorists dead so we can get on with our lives. Bendito et al don't want that. They want war and strife so that we are forced to join their zealot neocon camp. They want endless war (and they want innocents to fight it).

And that, my friends, is fucking profane.

GOW that was eloquent...

What started my thinking about cussing vs. vulgarity was the fact that the Blog has become the voice of America. This Country is in a serious predicament and will continue to be challenge daily by those who are governing us at the moment. Our voice has become extremely important, especially now that we can no longer believe in our own media. People of influence just might visit this Blog, or maybe a senator or congressman might come here to read something that was suggested to them, and we want them to hear us loud and clear. Above all else, we want to be taken very seriously by anyone who reads this Blog. TLC does not write articles and we do not respond to those articles to be dismissed as a second rate Blog.

Personally, I think TLC is probably one of the finest, most thought provoking Blog on the Internet.

Yes, it sounds as if the world would be a true utopia if GOW was in charge.

how's that "ad-hoc" thing working for you, fresnoboob? moron....

GOW, you got your point across loud and clear withous resorting to vulgarity. You just proved my case. Thanks.

FresnoBob-and your boys have been in charge how long? From where I'm standing it doesnt look good for the home team(that includes me even though I reject your worldview), and I personally blame you guys for all of it.

So its a case of any ideas are probably better than the horsesh*t your guys have been serving up. Utopia for a greedy CEO isn't the same as one for you and me. But some how you can't see that.

Pity

GOW, by-the-way, that was meant as a compliment.

Nay, they are fucking worthless shitspewing ghouls streaked piss yellow with cowardice. See, that was a far more accurate characterization of the Beniditos, MuckDogs, Bagleys, etc. who are the poster children of why abortion should be available on demand. Simply put, the world would be better off without their malignant worldview

GOW proves my point as well. Leftists are really hate filled individuals. Out of power they become unhinged. Sounds as if GOW would like to have a final solution to the republican problem. Who's the nazi now?

God of War

I understand your rightous anger. I feel it too, and it drives me in the things I do. I have gone from being a charter member of the apathy party, to tableing for Dean deep in the heart of Tom Delays home district.

But cuss words are a funny thing. I had a neice and a nephew who were 8 and 6 respecectivly. They were in a cursing phase, and I had heard them even do it in front of their parents.

My niece asked me what I thought about their ablity to launch one like a drunken sailor. I explained to her that if you curse all the time, all the curse words loose their ability to shock anybody. I told her she should save them for when she really needs them.

Her parents were amazed, and she later commented on how amazed she was by all the kudos she got for being such a well manered little girl. Except when she is pissed off. But she is so much more effective now when pissed. Her parents will cave in two seconds when the first cuss word comes out.

Her own words..." I'm a way more effective bitch now!"

I can't tell you how proud an uncle I am.

Any way, take that for what its worth.

Cause as much as I love where ya coming from, I tend to quit reading at about the 5th f*ck, and I imagine its even worse for our delicate natured middle of the roaders that may accidently wander in here.

Strictly your call of course.

boob you're the obvious nazi..you support the nazi in the white house..how does it feel to hate America and be a fascist?

Fresno-

youre stupidity shine like the brightest polish on a spitoon.

A sense of humor is what is desperatly needed by the left. Stacy R. is correct, the average person can't relate to the constantly spewed venom and profanity, it really would help your cause to be more reasoned.

Hatred-especially when coupled with sheer frustration over lacking any power to do something directly with that emotion-breeds the vulgarity that you are now trying to dissuade.

Passion is a wonderful thing. I am very passionate about many things, sometimes to the point of using vulgarities. But I also try and respect others whose own Passions do not coincide with mine.

This website is among other things, a means to get the LEFT Wing Message out to the masses. Although I very passionately feel that this message is completely wrong for America, I really don't want you to change anything.

As I've said, true liberalism, aka socialism/facism, state controlled schools, state controlled businesses, state controlled speech, state controlled rights- are so fraught with intellectual dishonesties that I sincerely believe that your lack of truthfulness and honesty to others and especially to yourselves, brings about these vulgar outbreaks. Its frustrating to really, really want others to be controlled by your passions, its maddening, when your opinions have such little foundation in the truth or reality-ergo the manical outburts-Bush is Stupid, trolls are fucking morons etc.

So keep up the good work. Keep generating the hatred and arrogant posts that embolden your ignorant and heart felt masses. Because, eventually the truth will find its way to the surface.

Oh, and as to trolls. Why not trolling some right wing websites and posting your comments there. I guarantee you that you will not find the abusive and vulgar comments that are so routinely and habitually used on this and other left wing websites.

Try the democraticunderground. Talk about vulgarities and hatred.

I must though, acknowledge that the first post was driven by a very intellectually honest opinion. But there is no way in H E double toothpicks that these guys and gals will ever be able to control themselves. Hate again, is a strong motivator, so strong that it takes complete control over the person.

Thats my evil right wing two cents worth.
Now let the hate bashing begin....

Your loyal troll posting/watching conservative.

Judith, thanks for bringing up the subject. While the sad trolls think this is about them, we all know better. I think of TLC as home base; I'd be devastated if it loses any stature on my account. I am a guest and try to act accordingly.

GOW, I understand your fury. Little minds like bob's are an unfortunate by-product of an open society. Freedom is for everyone, not just the clever ones. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the discussion is not so much about curse words per se, it's more about personal attacks as opposed to refuting a troll's talking points with facts. We all need to vent once in a while, because everything you said is true: we are the enemy to them. You know why? Because of our intelligence, and our empathy, and our opposition. Because we want a better world for everyone, not just the ones on our side. If you watched dorita shut down Bagley last night, you'll see how our perceived weakness by these wilfully ignorant fanatics is really our strength.

Carpe,

Well said

Thats my evil right wing two cents worth.
Now let the hate bashing begin....

Yawn

trolls are obviously incapable of understanding a progressive, anti fascist viewpoint..they make this point with their continually insipid and oblivious comments...although one of this website's strengths is that it tolerates differing views it shouldn't be lost that trolls at best are good only for amusement and abuse...that is the only point I can take from their continual self abuse...more power to those commenters who tee off on these sometime illiterate, all time ignorant masochists....

If you watched dorita shut down Bagley last night, you'll see how our perceived weakness by these wilfully ignorant fanatics is really our strength.

They confuse kindness with weakness.

They used to be right, but not anymore.

I guarantee you that you will not find the abusive and vulgar comments that are so routinely and habitually used on this and other left wing websites.

Right, they just ban you.

Up is down, black is white.

crappy, I have commented on right wing sites (when they allow comments) and before my comments are deleted, the language used would make headxray blush. And I always take care to comment without abuse, or assumptions about the writers, etc. (unlike you). But it's not the cursing that turns me off on those sites. It's the deep, simmering hatred in the replies, the personal comments not only about me, but about my family (even if I've offered no personal details whatsoever), and the death wishes from the other commenters that turn me off. You and your "people" despise us with a soul-blackening hatred because we're proof that some humans can be caring and smart and successful and you are nothing but dirt in comparison. It's sad, honey, but it's true.

IAMCOYOTE states that Freedom is for everyone....

Au Contraire Monsignor....

Freedom is not for the Iraqis. Even though oppressed for 30 years under Sadamm. Freedom is not for them.

Freedom is not for the North Koreans either. They are only free to live in a truely Democratic utopia, where all of the harsh realities of life, healthcare, food, jobs, schooling, etc. that should be "provided" by the Government, is provided by the Government.

Freedom has its hard points. It requires personal responsibilty and yes, it requires that sometimes bad things created by bad individual choices have to be played out, but nonetheless, its still the only way I would want to live.

But hey, Freedom aint for everybody. Only for those that are fortunate enough to be born in a Society wherein you can live free, speak free and enjoy the sacrafices of men and women who have fought and died for you in years past. Strange though, that that same freedom allows you to ignorantly preach that freedom is not to be given to any other people in the world.

Guess what. Circa 1780's. The American Revolution. You are a Frenchman. Your politicians are talking about helping those people across the ocean. The polls of those people indicate less than 30% want to break away from England. England has been in control of that part of the world for generations.

What would you say about helping these new americans achieve their freedoms?
Heck, even back then we had enormus freedoms, compared to the Iraqis.

My bet is you would say, to hell with America. War is never the answer.

Liberal Hypocracy-is there no end?

Freedom is not for the Iraqis. Even though oppressed for 30 years under Sadamm. Freedom is not for them.

Well, they're free now. I would bet that Iraqi public opinion doesn't value their freedom as highly as you think.

carp loser, maybe if you would learn how to spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y or e-n-o-r-m-o-u-s someone would pay attention to your post..but as long as you're an apologist for the fascist, nazi's in power, I doubt it....

Carpe Diem-

The very idea that any Republicans actually care about anobody that doesn't go to their church is laughable.

The whole spreading democracy thing is like #14 on the reasons list, trotted out because all the others where proven to be monsterous fabrications.

Try to stay in reality just a little bit, mkay?

Iamcoyote, the proof of what you just posted is heard daily by their spokepeople like O'Rielly, Rush, etc. Talk about hate. The basis for those types of shows are built on hate and I might add, very successful. Evidently there is a lot of money in hatred. I have never heard a Democrat call for the killing of others or the bombing of an American building.

It's the deep, simmering hatred in the replies, the personal comments not only about me, but about my family (even if I've offered no personal details whatsoever), and the death wishes from the other commenters that turn me off.

Carpe Diem, I think this is what they call projection. You can spot when they have no ideas when they jump on spelling errors. They can't refute the truth.

Not to mention that we were talking about freedom on this blog, and maybe in our country. Way to avoid looking in the mirror by wild global generalizations. Maybe you just hate us because you can't keep up and it chaps your hide.

Carpe Diem, I think this is what they call projection.

Since you admit you dont know what projection is, let me illustrate.

Take CDs lenghty rant up-page, and change all the references to Dems back into Republicans. What you have then is a close aproximation of the actual truth.

CDs rant then becomes a projection, in other words, he projects his and your actuall behaviour onto the hated liberals. Whether they in fact actually act this way is illrelevent.

Its a way for you to actually hate that rotteness inside of you by projecting it onto your generic boogy-man...the liberal.

I hope this has been enlightning for you, but I doubt it.

On the issue of vulgarity, moderation is a lot more effective than a blistering rant with every conceivable profanity. Once you string a few of them together, the point tends to blunt. Of course, most of my posts are pointless, ill-conceived attempts at humor, so I really am not qualified to post on the subject, so I won’t.

SnarkyShark, crappy's brittle psyche can't handle the truth!

SnarkyShark, crappy's brittle psyche can't handle the truth!

geeze, I hope I din't push it over the edge!

All those puppies that are going to be kicked.

Sad

I do believe that true hatred can be found far more in actions than in words.

Take for instance the hatred of the Constitution. Civil liberties and rights destroyed by the Un-Patriot Act. Inaction by those more loyal to their party than to the Constitution and the country in refusing oversight responsibilities. Oh, this hatred infiltrates all of our lives and defending it is complicit.

How about hatred for the poor and minorities and women. This hatred has been manifested in "Reconciliation" which adds 20 Billion to the debt. This hatred cuts funding for school lunches, food stamps, medicaid, support enforcement, student loans. This is vulgar and obscene.

How about hatred of human rights as demonstrated in secret prisons and torture.

How about hatred for all US children as evidenced in an 8 trillion dollar debt - this will have to be paid for, by us, our kids and our grandkids.

Oh, this hatred is far more pervasive and severe than a couple of fucking swear words. This one kills us all.

"most of my posts are pointless, ill-conceived attempts at humor"

and certainly enjoyed by me.

Anjha demonstrates how to stick the knife in straight to a kidney.

One good swear word on the end to put an exclamation point on the whole thing.

This post is so good it makes me want to persue instituting a hunting season on stupid adminstration apoligists.

Notice how I dint say republicans as this really should be a bi-partisian issue.

Anjha, excellent points. It is not what they say, but what they do. The only way to judge anything or anyone.

Hear, hear, Anjha.

Nitwits like Crape Diem (aka "FresnoBoob") are quite interesting. One can see the operation of a "mind" (so to speak) intoxicated by ideology.

The current reactionary ideologies are the "free market" and "democracy". Every current political issue is then relected through the rigid rules of these ideological prisms and produces the hilarity found in their posts.

Thus Crape can spin insane fantasies about an absolutist monarch aiding our revolution because Louis XVI wanted to support popular democracy, for Christ's sake. (Hint to Crape: read a book!)

And this is then considered "factual support" for his position.

Half of American Boobs now reason like this. Practical, informed common sense has been jettisoned for "analysis" using the rules of a dubious ideology.

And these blindered clowns declare that WE"RE the Marxists!!

Okay, Okay, lets see how well you handle some truth.

1. I mis-spelled Hypocracy? Hells bells, I spell it like I say it. Us dumb ole southern red necks only went to public schools. I also misspelled several other words, Gees, louise, if you hang around long enough, you'll find even more. So whatever it takes to get your rocks off.

2. SnarkyShark-Did I read it correctly, that you are proud of your filthy mouthed 6 and 8 year old neice/nephew. Say it aint so. Do there parents know anything about parenting. Ever heard of discipline? Of course, if they made thier kids personally responsible for their behavior, via punishment, then they might grow up to be Conservatives. Now they can just blame their futures on their liberal upbringing, making a full circle of their victimization.

3. And finally, I hope, is this circular reasoning that you are utilizing to augment your weak intellectual argument. You use the term projectionism to state that I don't realize that I'm delusional. That could be very true. If I'm that delusional to not see the truth, then I could very well be wrong. However, couldn't it be also true that you liberals are doing the exact same thing? . . . (I know it hurts, to think here, but try, just try it alittle bit, it won't hurt so bad.) Obviously, it could be true. I could be delusional in only seeing that which supports my pre-concieved beliefs. Or you could. Or we both could be doing this to some minimal/maximum degree, which I suspect is the truth. But to constantly harangue my views with the ludicrous argument that could be used exactly against you, is silly. At least for people of honesty and intelligence.

I admit I'm biased. I can't help it. I try to see both sides of every issue, but I know, try as I might, I can never truely succeed. I have certain principles that I believe very strongly in.
The rights/power/responsiblity of the individual.
The need for limited governmental inteference.
The overall goodness in man, and that many are engrossed in such evil that it requires that on occaisions, good men must act, and with force to stop the evil that steals freedom from generations of human beings. (the only thing for evil to succeed in this world, is for good men to do nothing.)

Oh, I'm not a "christian" right winger. I'm actually an agnostic brought up Christian. I would have been a buddhist or a muslim, if brought up that way, so I have some sympathies for my upbringing, but I attend no church and I raise my three children to think for themselves to study all religions and to find the one they believe to be right for them. But to primarily consider only two basic principles. (again with my principles.)
To love God with all of your heart mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself and to do this by treating others as you would have them treat you.

I'm anti union, although I recognize the good that unions have done.
I'm opposed to abortion in principle, but understand that partial birth abortion is not the same as RU486.
I don't care about Under God in the pledge, but I want the pledge in our schools.
I don't want prayer in schools, but I do want times of silence.
I believe all churches should be taxed, including synagoues.(sic) et al. I believe in a national sales tax that will tax the huge hidden ecomony, but that basic staples of life, milk, bread, butter. etc. should be tax free.
I believe that drugs should be decriminalized, but that we shouldn't pay for healthcare that these addicts will acquire from these drugs.

I'm an African-American, even though I'm a white male. Since my origins are Homo Erectus, then my roots go back to Africa.
(I hate this hyphienated politically correct BS that you liberals created to help make people feel good about themselves. I suppose it gives you something to do while drinking your $3.95 cups of coffee at the trendy coffee shops, in between cursing at Republicans.)
I believe America can be wrong and can be right, but I believe in her basic principles of freedom, freedom that I believe is precious and that WE SHOULD BE ATTEMPTING TO EXPORT that freedom throughout the world.
I believe Freedoms are taken away from us everyday that we become more dependant on our Government to take care of us.

Sure I know some right wing religious zealots. just like I know you on the left. But I believe in my basic principles, that are quasi-conservative/libertarian, and right now, even with all of its warts, the Republicans are closer to my philosphy. and that you dems are for all practical purposes, awash in socialism/facism. If you look up the definitions for these terms, maybe you can actually see who is looking in the mirror.

Oh, and FresnoBob sounds like he's from San Fran. He writes somewhat differently than me, so I don't think our occaisionaly similiar mis-spellings are enough to judge us the same, but hey, for you liberal conspiracy nuts, I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

Of course, if they made thier kids personally responsible for their behavior, via punishment, then they might grow up to be Conservatives.

My parents raised me to be "personally responsible" for my behavior - I think most parents did up until the past 20 years or so when the world became child-center. Oddly enough, I am pretty damn liberal. And oddly enough, most 20something kids (aka: the Entitlement Generation) - raised by parents who didn't raise their children to take reposnsibility - are conservatives. Go figure.

These people have the kind of faith in "free markets" that medieval theologians had in Providence and with as little rigor in thier definitions as to what it means other than that they want to pay all thier little games with no adult supervision (because it magically benefits US All-bleeding hearts just dont realize it).

Steve, I hope we made you proud, and started "the weekend right"!

From here on, I will only go by bbtb. You'll all know how I really feel.

BTW - The opposite of Love is not Hate. The opposite of Love is indifference.

It is the indifference in those who support the policies of this administration, those who stand by idly and turn their heads and do not fight against the injustices and atrocities that are being performed. To the umpth degree of this indifference is the justification and the rationalization of supporting and applauding these policies.

Great debate is good. Without dissent, women would never have gained the right to vote or own property and the majority of our population would still be sitting in the back of the bus and have separate drinking fountains.

I welcome debate, however I can only debate with someone who has some semblance of reality; other wise I am just playing checkers on a psych-ward and no one wins.

Another BTW: communism can't be an either/or with facism - they are on opposite ends of the spectrum////

Carpe, I wish you would look up the definition of fascism, then look up liberal. As a liberal, it's the opposite of what I want in my country.
The reason I went in the military was, "...to defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic". Let's clean our own house before we try and ram a corrupted form of democracy down others throats.

SnarkyShark-Did I read it correctly, that you are proud of your filthy mouthed 6 and 8 year old neice/nephew.

And then you go on and blather about bad liberal parents. Too bad mom and pops are Republicans!

And they pay crap-loads of money to send them to a fine up-standing Catholic school. Cause they dont want em going to school with those people.

Do you see the humor in this yet? I knew you or some other numb-nut would jump on this. I live in Texas and I am the anomoly. But you just assume shit cause you aren't capable of thinking outside your tiny narrow little box.

And I was proud because she quit cussin. Or should we add your inablity to comprehend written english to your many faults.

Carpe, excellent post. Why are you a Republican? You sound more like a Democrat, except for the part about spreading Democracy and Choice. Much to my surprise, we have more in common that I thought. For the first time, I have been given information on who you are, and I have a lot more respect for you in that knowledge. We may never agree on some issues, but thank you for telling us what you do believe.

Please don't judge on spelling, as I do not always spell correctly and my grammer sometimes sucks.

I could be delusional in only seeing that which supports my pre-concieved beliefs.

Since I was 9 years old I have been interested in and have practiced phenomenology as described by Edmund Husserel. This requires me to activly toppel my preconcieved notions on a daily, nay hourly basis.

This is to try to see things as they are, not how we wish them to be. And from this vantage, you guys project a lot. Its almost a window into your soul. Certinely a signpost.

Also you say you are conservative. Explain to me how that(conservitism as defined in the classical sense) has ANY thing to do with the Cheney Administration.

I see a contradiction in Carpe's principles.

He talks about teaching and believing in personal responsibility and that the gov't takes away our freedoms when people rely on the gov't. Then talks about how it is essential to spread and export freedom....obviously by using our gov't to do as such. I believe Freedoms are taken away from us everyday that we become more dependant on our Government to take care of us.Do you see the contradiction here Carpe. Shouldn't it be the Iraqi's own personal responsibility and not our gov't that is responsible for spreading that freedom. Because if we rescue them and make them rely on us to give them freedom, then they will become less free according to your (il)logic. And since it is a strong belief of yours that it is our job to export freedom...then why don't you take this personal responsibility you're so strong on and do it with others that have that same belief instead of relying on our gov't to do as such....but I digress.

And btw, both my parents taught huge personal responsibility to all of their 5 children, and guess what 5 of us are liberals and registered as unenrolled or independent. So go figure, it's the values and principles that guide all of us, personal responsibility as well as a personal responsibility to help the most needy among us.

I figure those who use vulgarity and try to win debates by out-shouting the opposition, lose in their efforts.

I post at all kinds of blogs. Generally financial, but a few news/political ones. Including a few right-side websites.

I fought the crowds at the stores today. Man, huge lines at retail stores out there. I went to Fry's and Best Buy here in Sacramento, and the lines were like Disneyland lines. They should post "Your wait from this point is 45 minutes."

Geez, what a horrible economy.

muck, you are too much sometimes. I can't help but point out how you take a serious thread about such topics as profanity, child-rearing and politics, and make it into something so very funny.

Thanks for keeping everyone posted on the shopping lines. I'm sure your limited experience can be extrapolized to the entire country.

FWIW, I connect with Bagley because I spend my working day with non-native speakers. It's natural for me. I disagree with many of them but am obligated to get along with them. My interactions with Bagley are an extension of what I do on a daily basis. Learning from each other is the point. I learn from them, they learn from me, and sometimes, we change our minds on some points.

I think I just made a new word!

I went to Fry's and Best Buy here in Sacramento, and the lines were like Disneyland lines.

Thank you for your personal anecdote.

I went to the Wal-Mart in Waco Tx and it was unusally deserted. 3 of 4 checkout lines at the express checkout were empty.

Take that for what its worth.

dorita - extrapolized - I like it!

I went to Fry's and Best Buy here in Sacramento, and the lines were like Disneyland lines.

I went out and got Fried after making a Big Buy, too.

While that was unintentional, I have others. I'll test them on you all sometime:) As I always tell my students -- language is a living thing used by living things.

Wal-mart.

Now that's profanity.

nuf said?

And I won't lie to ya—the lines we chopped up were big. (Although "Disneyland lines" is pretty hyperbolic, if ya ask me...)

dorita, extrapolized should be a word. It fit in context so well.

just a thought, could we use this thread to counter the constant whine of how we are always so mean and hateful? I guess what I'm asking is the way to link to a thread. This little thread has been very revealing, with all the regulars chiming in. dj, maybe you know how to link to it in the future when someone says we are hateful? I'd love to just have a solid link to our open-minded, humorous, informative nature. I guess I could figure it out, but it could be useful in the future. I just don't know how to link it.

Well, Muck, the retailers are reporting flat sales. Business sluggish in their opinion.

dorita: I guess what I'm asking is the way to link to a thread.

If you right-click on a link to any comment thread on The Left Coaster or Low and Left, you can select from the right-click menu "Copy Link Location" (the exact wording might be different in Internet Explorer, but it's there somewhere) and then you can paste that link into the text of a blog post, comment, or any other craziness you're making.

or any other craziness you're making

ouch

thanks. . . I'll leave it at that.

BTW, it doesn't work that way in IE.

Does it even matter?

He writes somewhat differently than me...Posted by Carpe Diem

I have never read hatred and vulgarity equal to LGF and FreeRepublican on any leftish site.

Fry's always use a bank-style single line to feed into their registers. On every weekend, that line, at least in their LA stores, is long. During the holiday season, my local Best Buy uses the same bank-style line. In each year that Bush has been president, the number of people falling into poverty has increased. Each year. In each year Clinton was president, that number decreased. That is, ipso facto, a proof that the Bush economy is worse.

Here's a conspiracy theory for you. Is it true? You be the judge. The following is just an opinion. Who knows for sure....

The retailers are just trying to game Wall St. They don't need to say things are great, because their stocks are already rallying. By saying things are flat, their stock price won't tank and they'll just go up with the market during the annual year-end rally. And then when the actual numbers come out in the first quarter, better than their flat projections, up go the stocks.

Eh, just an observation from an investor who tries to be on the right side of all the game playin'...

dorita, I actually got off my lazy ass and checked it out in IE. What you want to do is right-click on the link and select "Copy Shortcut" then paste it where you want it.

I meant "craziness" in the nicest, least vulgar way possible. :)

Fresno - I take it back about you needing to go to Iraq (otherwise known as walking your talk). The troops already have all that thae can handle in the way of car bombs etc without the possibility of a 250 lb bag of chickensh*t and hot air exploding in thier midst.