Moral Foundations
by digby
I see that Senator Lieberman is concerned about partisanship poisoning the atmosphere in Washington and he has some stern words for Democrats who insist on criticizing the president.
"It's time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge he'll be commander-in-chief for three more years. We undermine the president's credibility at our nation's peril."
From: Go to Hullabaloo to read entire article.
What is it with Lieberman? Can the Party throw him out? He is working continually against our best interest at a time when our Country is being destroyed. He obviously believes in nothing our Party stands for, and worse yet, has become our worst critic.
Is the story big enough that it just might get the MSM's attention? That's all I want to know.
Posted by Judith at December 6, 2005 11:02 PMPlease post it already...the suspense is killing me!!
Posted by Adrian at December 7, 2005 12:53 AMI'm thinking... "Operation Deception" as the lead.
Gawd, hurry up
::refresh:: ::refresh:: ::refresh::
Well, I checked in one last time before heading off for work today (where sadly I can't check in here ). You have given me another thing to look forward to when I come home!
Posted by emal at December 7, 2005 04:54 AMSP's fBLs nwst PSD grly wtd by ths wh vhmntly vlfy hypthtcl lr.
[Editor: ignore=off]Yikes, looks like a bug in Bendito's software!
Posted by iamcoyote at December 7, 2005 06:22 AMWho is this Eriposte and why would anyone care what he or she breaks?
Posted by C.H. Truth at December 7, 2005 06:22 AMch liar... read it for your self and quit asking stupid questions....
Posted by headxray at December 7, 2005 06:52 AMBendito must take hours to come up with those.
Posted by idiosynchronic at December 7, 2005 06:55 AMWhy Conservatives Are Smarter
Writing in the Jerusalem Post, Jonathan Rosenblum of Jewish Media Resources ponders the careers of Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice-designate Sam Alito, and in the process makes an excellent point about Ivy League conservatives and liberals:
Because of their minority status it is far more difficult for conservative students to entertain the illusion that all smart people think like them. They are exposed to many obviously bright young men and women whose opinions on almost every issue vary radically from their own. . . .
Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises. . . .
Liberals can be wonderful people, and boon companions, but they often have a hard time dealing with people of opposing views--especially when they cannot dismiss them out of hand as idiots. Too often they have spent their entire adult lives surrounded almost entirely by those who think just like them, and it comes naturally to dismiss those of other views as intellectually or morally challenged.
This is true beyond the Ivy League, as we noted just after the 2004 election. With liberalism the dominant ideology in the news and entertainment media, it is virtually inescapable to any American who doesn't go to great lengths to insulate himself from it. Big-city liberals, by contrast, can easily filter out conservative ideas, and thus need contend only with their own prejudices. Thus conservatives are smarter than liberals--not necessarily in terms of native intelligence, but of understanding the world around them.
Bendito must take hours to come up with those.
The original Bendito-bot was, of course, a Perl script, and as a result of being written in such a high-level, iterpreted language, was quite slow. But the evident bugs in this output:
eSOP's fABLEs newest ePISODE eagerly awaited by those who vehemently vilify hypothetical liar.
might indicate that the Bendito-bot's programmer is in the process of rewriting it in C, to get better performance. Once he gets the kinks worked out, I'm sure we'll have dozens of Bendito-bot's pithy bons mots per thread.
Posted by dj moonbat at December 7, 2005 07:05 AMHey, cool. If the Crapster makes all of his posts entirely out of quotes from people who can write, these threads will be a lot more pleasant to read. I heartily endorse your decision to outsource your argumentation, CD!
Posted by dj moonbat at December 7, 2005 07:08 AM"Too often they have spent their entire adult lives surrounded almost entirely by those who think just like them, and it comes naturally to dismiss those of other views as intellectually or morally challenged." gee dead carp that is a perfect description of the chimp and big time...got anything else to say?
Posted by headxray at December 7, 2005 07:30 AMSome guy was on Tweedy's show last night, and just ripped the entire Bush Iraq War to shreds..shouldn't have gone, lied, wrong force, no plan, and on and on. Matthew's didn't do anything but let the guy go on and on...no counters or anything. He really laid it out in no uncertain (or Democrat scaredy) way. The guy was a former operative or something and Matthews apparently felt he had the ways and means to know the real scoop in Iraq. Very devastating rebuke of BushCo.
Posted by T2 at December 7, 2005 07:45 AMheadxray...
What specifically am I supposed to read? I went to the site and there is nothing that isn't old "who cares" rhetoric. Most of it linked back to this site here. The only thing breaking was this guy's credibility...
Posted by C.H. Truth at December 7, 2005 08:03 AMWhat specifically am I supposed to read? I went to the site and there is nothing that isn't old "who cares" rhetoric. Most of it linked back to this site here. The only thing breaking was this guy's credibility...
Clearly you are predisposed to dismiss anything you read here so why bother yourself?
Posted by at December 7, 2005 08:13 AMlearn how to read liar...
Posted by headxray at December 7, 2005 08:20 AM"With liberalism the dominant ideology in the news and entertainment media, it is virtually inescapable to any American who doesn't go to great lengths to insulate himself from it."
Isn't there an expiration date for the conservative victim complex? Control of the legislature, executive, judicial branch, and religious institutions just ain't enough, I guess.
Posted by DukeRevolution at December 7, 2005 08:45 AM"Thus conservatives are smarter than liberals--not necessarily in terms of native intelligence, but of understanding the world around them."
In fairness, though, you must admit that there are people on both sides of the fence who have no idea why they believe what they're told. I've met my share of dittoheads who can only spout talking points without rationality just as I sat through one class this semester where the professor imagined a scenario where the US could do no right and Islam could do no wrong. Both are irritating to me.
All that being the minority would do is make them solidify their points of view as a reaction against the dominant paradigm. That doesn't make them smarter, just more intellectually honest. And what of the lone liberals on a conservative campus? Wouldn't it work in reverse?
Posted by DukeRevolution at December 7, 2005 08:51 AMIsn't there an expiration date for the conservative victim complex? Control of the legislature, executive, judicial branch, and religious institutions just ain't enough, I guess.
Victimhood rallies the voters.
Posted by ann at December 7, 2005 08:56 AMToon of the Day: Why Does President Bush Hate Jesus?
Posted by jjoats at December 7, 2005 09:21 AMAn analysis of the underlying numbers that effect the economy and most certainly peoples' perception of the state of the economy:
Interesting given yesterday's economic cheerleading session by muckdog. Of course, he'll disagree with this and tell us once again how wealth (aka: investments owned by the elite) is incredible, unemployment non-existent and opportunity abounding. Yeah, sure if you already have money, you can make money right now. But if you're unemployed, I hear fast food restaurants in New Orleans are offering hiring bonuses!
Posted by ann at December 7, 2005 09:38 AMConservatives aren't smarter. They are just meaner and play a dirtier game than most liberals are willing to play. What liberalism stands for is the antithesis of the evil slash and burn techniques the conservatives use. But as anyone knows, you can slash and burn and abuse God's great land, but underneath all of the devastation is a sprig of life. And that sprig is the progressive people who strongly feel the need to nurture God's earth and replenish it for future generations. It is the survival of the species. But, I guess that is too "evolutionary" for most neocon right wingers.
Posted by Meow at December 7, 2005 09:55 AMEriposte writes a bunch of stuff here. I'd categorize most of his posts as the conspiracy type. I rarely read his posts. But a lot of people here seem to enjoy them. Just another opinion, I suppose.
I find the economic posts and the open thread (news of the day) entries interesting, just to see liberals' view of the news.
I think there are quite a few smart liberals out there, though. My favorite political figure would be Robert Rubin. I think he's a smart guy. And for all the flak Bill Clinton gets, he's no dummy. I think he did a lot of good things as president, especially during his 2nd term. (Roth IRAs, eliminating taxes on real estate capital gains, ending the source tax, and he signed NAFTA/GATT. These were pro-growth things to do.)
News of the day... Ford announces 30K layoffs over the next 5 years. (Ann, that's 6000 a year or 500 a month.) I'd imagine with a huge company like F, this can be done mostly via attrition. 10 plant closings in the US. This is probably due to the fact that F is losing a ton of money for each car they sell, due to high labor/benefit costs.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 09:56 AMLOL, Ann. Like I've mentioned before, well over half of Americans own stocks and over 70% are homeowners. Pretty much all of us are the investment class these days!
DailyKos repeats the ridiculous "pouting pundits of pessimism" spin from the left. As most of us know, the 2000 incomes were way out of line with reality due to $250.00/hr programmers. You do remember the Y2K crisis, don't you? You do remember when everybody wanted to be a web programmer? (Kind of like how everybody today wants to be in the real estate business!)
That's what happens at the end of bubbles. Unemployment dropped below "full employment" levels (5% unemployment) and the bidding war for workers began. You had folks job hopping every few months for higher and higher salaries. That just isn't sustainable.
Same comment on his "wage growth" paragraph. The bubble was over in early 2000. In addition, we've seen globalization impact many sectors of this economy. That's the way free markets work. You can't have hub cap makers in Detroit asking for $30 an hour when somebody just as qualified in India will make them for $3 an hour.
DailyKos then cites job growth since 2001. Who cares? The Fed tightened rates, the bubble burst, and the economy corrected. We were in a bear market from 2000-2002. Everybody knows that.
The past year, the economy has been averaging over 179K jobs a month. Enough to keep pace with population growth. We're at full employment at 5%. GDP is clipping along at over 4%.
Kos did get the cheap money comment right. And that's what happens during recessions and at times of national crisis (9/11). The Fed lowers rates to stimulate borrowing and spending. We're doing quite a bit of that. It worked.
The longer we can maintain this GDP, unemployment rate, and job growth numbers, the longer this economic expansion will run. Once we see job growth numbers surge month after month, it'll be about over. The Fed will slam on the brakes like they did 1999-2000.
Bank on that.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 10:18 AMMuck, I know you aren't exactly Mr. Popular around these parts, but I believe you are an asset to this blog for your insight without taking contrary views personally like some of the other characters that prowl these parts.
I may get some flak for this, and I certainly do not speak for everyone, but thanks for sticking around to be a balance in what would otherwise be an echo chamber. Your logical, thoughtful analyses are far more welcome than the normal dickitry from trolls and helps us to reexamine why we believe what we do.
Posted by DukeRevolution at December 7, 2005 10:34 AMDuke, you do realize that while mucky's writing his nicey nice post saying what a wonderful, smart person you are, he's laughing his head off and saving your comment to throw in our faces when he and the other trolls gloat about why the dems have lost the last few elections. Mucky is a sociopath and a liar; try reading his comments during the Katrina threads, and you'll see.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 7, 2005 10:49 AMIncreasingly, IMO, we have multiple "economies" that are becoming utterly disconnected from each other. The one for people who have significant money to invest and can buy luxury automobiles is the one that economists tend to call "the economy". The others get ignored because it's assumed that if "the economy" is doing better, it will eventually filter down to the working & middle classes. That assumption is frankly looking less and less valid.
Couldn't have said it better myself so I'm posting someone else's comments.
Posted by ann at December 7, 2005 10:56 AMCoyote,
I've seen enough of the demonizing of the opposition, and I'm tired of it...so very tired. I did read his comments, and they were cold, but rational. In all academic integrity, I cannot fight against his comments when they were made in careful consideration. Nobody likes people dying, and I'm dubious about psycho-profiling anyone I haven't met personally.
Posted by DukeRevolution at December 7, 2005 11:18 AMI'm still waiting for eriofullofhimself to prove that the media is not liberal. Unfortuanantly he won't be able to use any of the so-called massive violence and death from Katrina. Since the majority of networks have already come out and said that the stories were FALSE.
However, it was a good attempt on there part to make the Bush Administration look like they were purposly having the poor people of N.O. removed from earth permanantly.
All Media Sucks...So do Liberals
Posted by at December 7, 2005 11:41 AMDuke, I guess we'll agree to disagree. As for "nobody likes dying," I'm willing to bet the coward that commented after you likes it very much.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 7, 2005 11:56 AMYes, Muck makes many well-reasoned arguments here. However, that they are well-reasoned does not make them any more correct or factual.
Example- Like I've mentioned before, well over half of Americans own stocks and over 70% are homeowners. Pretty much all of us are the investment class these days!
In an argument of wealth vs. middle class/ poverty, or perceptions of economic prosperity across a wide spectrum of the populace, this reasoned statement pretty much misses the forest for the trees. Yes, someone with $10,000 in a Templeton Mutual Fund is technically an "investor," but yet more reasoning will tell you that there is a distinct difference between that and someone who owns say 10% of the total outstanding stock of a company the size of GM.
It doesn't matter one iota how solid the economic "numbers" are, or how loudly and repeatedly they are proclaimed, if the average Joe or Jane doesn't feel that economic prosperity in their own pocketbooks. That's the argument Ann points to and a lesson the Republicans never seem to learn.
Posted by Cosrai at December 7, 2005 11:59 AMThanks, Duke. Kind words. We can all agree to disagree, and these Open Threads are a great place to throw our ideas and comments out.
Ann quotes a piece of "multiple economies" but isn't that always the case? If one worked in the shoe industry when that left America, times were hard. If one worked in the horse and buggy industry when autos came on the scene, times were hard. If one worked in the steel industry a few decades ago, times were hard.
Heck, folks who made and repaired typewriters had a rough life in the 90's, as the personal computer took over!
Now, for those in the airline and auto industry, times are hard. For those who work behind a desk selling travel packages in the day of Expedia and Travelocity, times are hard. For those working in call centers and some backoffice support functions in these days of cheap labor overseas, times are hard.
But if you're a safety officer, teacher or nurse, times are pretty good. Times are great for government workers. Same for any number of municipalities, utilities, etc. Times are great for construction workers and those involved with home improvement. Real estate is still doing well, even though it has slowed down a bit over fall/winter. Times are still good for technology workers. Things are on fire for biotech workers.
And according to the Wall St Journal a few days ago, many companies have tons of blue collar listings that they can't even fill.
Opportunities are out there, for those interested. Just grab 'em. Providing opportunities is the American way.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 12:13 PMMucktroll's base use around here is to divert attention to arcane sidestreets of the economy and away from real money issues affecting normal americans. I don't find that useful.
Posted by T2 at December 7, 2005 12:19 PMYes, someone with $10,000 in a Templeton Mutual Fund is technically an "investor," but yet more reasoning will tell you that there is a distinct difference between that and someone who owns say 10% of the total outstanding stock of a company the size of GM.
Ah, Sir John Templeton is one of the good ones. I think I may have owned a fund or two in that family of funds over the years. I do like reading his market commentaries.
The idea that somebody has $10K in a mutual fund and then comparing them to Warren Buffett is just wrong thinking, in my opinion. Most investment strategies include a "dollar cost averaging" approach over a lifetime. If one starts saving 10-15% of income at age 16 on, they'd be in great shape down the road.
It's called planning. Some do it, some don't. Those who do it are generally better off than those who don't.
Every high school kid should be required to take a course in financial planning, IMHO. I'd include an assignment where each kid had to prepare their financial plan and present it to the class. This would include some lifetime objectives, like college, kids, autos, homes, college savings for kids, and retirement. The whole ball of wax. This would include the types of investment vehicles they'd use to meet each objetive. Put it in writing when they're 17-18 years old.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 12:24 PMWell, Muck, what do you think of $400 billion for a Theocracy in Iraq? I guess you think that's a bargain.
Posted by Ga6thDem at December 7, 2005 12:28 PMSomeone call Bill O'Reilly.
The War on Christmas has reached the White House!
Posted by snark at December 7, 2005 12:37 PMI think what needs to happen is instead of just throwing up the nation's collective hands and saying "Oh well, sucks to be them," we ought to make the transitions as painless as possible through retraining opportunities and other systems. The President paid lip service to that, then cut funds for it. We need to put money back into those to help out those blue collar workers.
I think an interesting statistic is necessary: where the hardest hit areas are versus the WSJ's allegation of not having enough workers. I'm sure there are ten thousand open jobs open across the country, but that doesn't really help the unemployed mill worker now, and unless he has money to travel cross country, it's probably not going to happen. And that's provided he even knows about it, which can be difficult. In my experience in looking for manufacturing jobs, they don't really go hunting for people very effectively; you usually have to go through an employment agency in order to get work there.
Posted by DukeRevolution at December 7, 2005 12:43 PMA lot of those companies looking for workers have training programs available. In addition, most municipalities have training agencies available. Some large companies have job fairs that help folks being let go find new employers.
Probably the most difficult thing for unemployed workers is uplifting their roots and moving to where the jobs are. I think that has to be an option for folks, though.
Ga6, if I was raising a family in one of those Middle East countries, I'd do whatever I could to come to the US so that my family would have better life opportunities. For whatever reason, there seems to be a shroud of darkness and despair over the Middle East that doesn't seem to have a solution.
Living in the Middle East is kind of like living in the Amityville Horror house. I wouldn't stick around. I'd get the heck out.
As far as the US policy goes, I think we've been at war with them for decades and will continue to be into the future.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 01:21 PMAnn quotes a piece of "multiple economies" but isn't that always the case? If one worked in the shoe industry when that left America, times were hard. If one worked in the horse and buggy industry when autos came on the scene, times were hard. If one worked in the steel industry a few decades ago, times were hard.
Yes, times are always hard for some people. So certainly you should be able to understand that for many people today, the economy is not doing well for them. But you refuse to see that.
As to the other comments regarding trolls and Muck, I too would hate this site to be merely an echo chamber of liberal thought. I watch Fox News sometimes just to try to understand where the conservative thought process is coming from. However, the problem I have with Muck is that he is totally focused on his "gated community" as iamcoyote described it yesterday. Like Bill O'Reilly, he is incapable of empathy unless you agree with him.
In Muck's world, everyone has the exact same abilities and opportunities as he does, so he just can't see why anyone who doesn't play in the stock market would view flat wages, slow job growth and increased prices as anything other than a booming economy.
He says over half of all Americans own stock even though the majority of that is through employer sponsored 401Ks and 403Bs which is nothing like being part of the elite investor class that I refer to. People who invest in an employer sponsored plan are not the same as those who have an extra 50K lying around that they can play on Ameritrade with all day long.
Point being that Muck is simply another Repubulican cheerleader who repeats the same old talking points over and over without any understanding that the majority of people in this country have not had the same opportunities as he has. And instead of understanding this, he simply dismisses them.
Energy costs are up and you live in Fargo? Well, you're stupid for not moving.
You're battling obesity? Just eat brown rice and veggies.
Displaced by Katrina? Well, why the hell were you stupid enough to live in New Orleans?
Unemployed? Just move where's there's a minimum wage job, work hard, gain skills and get a job that pays fifty cents more an hour.
Job outsourced? Just get trained to do a different job.
There's just no thought to the myriad of issues individuals face on a daily basis. One size fits all and it's your fault if you can't grab the brass ring like he does.
And at the same time that he condemns those who don't pull themselves up by their bootstraps, he doesn't have any problem with government subsidies and tax breaks for corporations who should be part of the free market he claims to believe in.
Gotta agree with iamcoyote, there is definitely a level of socipathy or at least narcissism.
I think this gem sums up muck's lack of understanding of the human condition.
Ga6, if I was raising a family in one of those Middle East countries, I'd do whatever I could to come to the US so that my family would have better life opportunities.
And exactly how would you accomplish that? Enter the country illegally? I don't know of a Visa category for "it sucks where I live." So your only choice would be to come here illegally. What a wonderful life that would be!
Lest I forget....
The idea that somebody has $10K in a mutual fund and then comparing them to Warren Buffett is just wrong thinking, in my opinion. Most investment strategies include a "dollar cost averaging" approach over a lifetime. If one starts saving 10-15% of income at age 16 on, they'd be in great shape down the road.
Yes, that was my point. It's incorrect to lump everyone together in some all encompassing "investment class" to make the argument everyone's benefitting from the economy. But thanks for the trip down Financial Planning Street.
Posted by Cosrai at December 7, 2005 02:12 PMann, great post about muckdog's mentality...you nailed it.
He's definitely got some issues. In previous posts he talked about How hard he worked (several jobs at a time to get himself an education and to where he is today...good for him I say) After hearing his story I said to him, it sounds just like mine and my spouses and probably half of my friends and college roomates story. He really thought he had done something no one else had done or was doing to get where he was in this world. The big difference is, I am grateful I was able to travel that road (I know many who aren't as fortunate due to circumstances beyond their control). Muck appeared to think that because of what he did and the road he had to travel, he was owed and deserved his success. I on the other hand felt grateful I was able to travel that road and got to where I was...no one owed me my success....I take nothing for granted.
I was just grateful for it because I know many who traveled that road and because of some other circumstance they weren't as successful. Muck can't relate to that, he just "blames" them if for their misfortune. Can't imagine what kind of parent he will become. I hope his kids are healthy,intelligent, and are successful because if they aren't...yikes for the kid.
Posted by emal at December 7, 2005 03:23 PMAs we learned from "The Millionaire Next Door," the vast majority of rich folks got that way over a lifetime of saving, investing, and spending wisely. It was a personal choice for most millionaires. And they created a plan on how to get there. Save a little every month. That's all there is to it.
You seem to think folks are entitlted to things. Furthermore, you believe that your passion for an entitlement system overrides the laws of economics and "how things work."
It's as if your answer to back pain would be "lets pass a law against gravity."
To respond to Ann's comments...
Energy costs are up and you live in Fargo? Well, you're stupid for not moving.
Think about this. If you're a low-income person and an extra $150 a month in energy costs breaks the bank, what would you do to provide for your family?
You're battling obesity? Just eat brown rice and veggies.
Obesity is a self-inflicted condition. So are the allergies, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer that comes with it. This is well documented. The number 1 health care solution would be dietary and lifestyle changes. It'd dramatically cut down on US health care costs.
If this nation is going to provide prescriptions for seniors, the way to do it is to create a tax on all animal and high fat products. Just consider it pre-paying for your future insulin and high blood pressure medication.
Displaced by Katrina? Well, why the hell were you stupid enough to live in New Orleans?
Well, they were warned to leave. File it under: "Doctor, it hurts when I hit my head with this hammer."
Unemployed? Just move where's there's a minimum wage job, work hard, gain skills and get a job that pays fifty cents more an hour.
I'd personally recommend acquiring skills that are in demand, so that you could garner a higher wage.
Job outsourced? Just get trained to do a different job.
People do this everyday.
There's just no thought to the myriad of issues individuals face on a daily basis. One size fits all and it's your fault if you can't grab the brass ring like he does.
K.I.S.S.: Keep it simple, silly. All that is required is desire and hard work. Just do it.
And your "one size fits all" answer is to raise taxes.
And at the same time that he condemns those who don't pull themselves up by their bootstraps,
So, if you had a cat and the cat took a dump in the litter box, do you wait for a government program to come along and clean the litter box? Or, do you do it yourself?
he doesn't have any problem with government subsidies and tax breaks for corporations who should be part of the free market he claims to believe in.
Realize that whatever we tax them gets passed along to consumers in the price of goods and services. As long as you don't mind paying more for energy, food and your other monthly expenses, go ahead and tax the snot out of corporations. You want a windfall tax on oil profits? Hello $4 gasoline! You'll be payin' it, not Exxon or Chevron.
Posted by muckdog at December 7, 2005 04:04 PMYup, iamcoyote was correct: sociopath. Did my post mention anything remotely near to asking for social programs (or as muck likes to say: entitlements) to address issues? Nope. Did I even you the word: taxes? Nope. Laws? Nope.
He completely missed the point of my post because he's already decided everything I think and believe. I detest people like this. People who have decided that they know the one true way to do everything and cannot relate in any way, shape or form to even a concept that does not fit their narrow view of how the world should be.
The laws of economics are simple: the rich get richer and the poor get poorer while the middle class gets squeezed.
And P.S.: allergies have absolutely nothing to do with obesity. I don't care what your guru web site says - you are misinformed. I've had allergies and asthma my entire life and I have never been obese.
Posted by ann at December 7, 2005 06:02 PMA question if I may, muck. Why do you feel it is necessary to repeat the same thing over and over again? I guess what I am really asking is what is your sincere purpose in commenting? That last comment of yours seems to sum up all of your other comments, except for the ones in which you discard a topic you don't value, so why continue to do it?
Honestly, are you people just now realizing what a complete and utter simpleton Muckdog is? He's just a pompous self-involved ignorant fuck. Ignore him.
Posted by sf at December 7, 2005 08:22 PM