Even Greenspan agrees that the economic disparity of the haves and the have mores vs. the rest of us is
not good for a democratic society.
So we are getting a bivariate income distribution. And as I have said many times in the past: For a democratic society, this is not healthful, to say the least
Interesting comment from Greenspan, ann. But certainly, the goal of Bush and crew is to be involved in the biggest kleptocracy this world has ever known while repeating over and over again about how the US is spreading democracy through the world. The Republican party that Rove built is the epitome of an Orwellian Mafia.
Posted by Mary at December 9, 2005 07:12 AMAnn, the piss-on, er 'trickle down' ideology is so deeply imbedded that many cannot see beyond it. The arguments for the tax debate were so obscene: "American families want to keep their money." OK, which American families? The top 1% are the only ones who benefit.
People who earn a million dollars or more will get over 100K in tax relief. I sure know a whole lot of people who would like to earn 100K.
When they were debating the cuts to education and healthcare and food stamps and support enforcement, the Dems said, 'if you just cut the tax break of these wealthy from 100K to 85K, then we can pay for x,y,z - the Republicans would hear none of it.
So now, families that are way the working poor, who earn around that 15K a year, lose the services they desperately need.
What ever happened to building people up so that they could then contribute to the economy?
I believe that if people are paid a living wage then they buy goods and services and the economy grows - guess that idea is absurd, huh?
Posted by Anjha at December 9, 2005 07:18 AMHow about some suggestions for how to really put the spirit of Christ back in the "holiday season"?
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, athiests, agnostics. Anyone.
What do you do during this supposed "season of giving" to make a difference in the lives of those outside of your immediate families and friends?
As a design professional I'm a big fan of Habitat for Humanity.
Having a safe clean place to live allows people to focus on helping themselves improve other aspects of their lives and the lives of their kids.
So if you don't know what to give that relative who has everything donate to a worthy cause, like Habitat, in their name.
Posted by muckcat at December 9, 2005 07:25 AMExcellent suggestion, muckcat!
In addition (and this will shock our wrong-wing friends), it wouldn't hurt to do something for our troops. My employer has 'adopted' six active-duty personnel and sent them each some nice reminders from home (yes - I contributed!).
Posted by pessimist at December 9, 2005 07:55 AMHow long's it gonna take before english-only speaking people in this country realize that in 20 to 30 years they'll probably be in the minority?
My daughter's already in spanish class. Chinese is probably not a bad idea either.
Posted by snark at December 9, 2005 07:58 AMInteresting comment from Greenspan, ann. But certainly, the goal of Bush and crew is to be involved in the biggest kleptocracy this world has ever known while repeating over and over again about how the US is spreading democracy through the world. The Republican party that Rove built is the epitome of an Orwellian Mafia.
Posted by Mary at December 9, 2005 07:12 AM
*****
Those fools must believe that they can dodge bullets.
Posted by God Of War at December 9, 2005 08:10 AMDear Snark: Over the decades it's been a hobby of mine to learn greetings, salutations, etc. in different languages. For instance, I've learned to say Merry Christmas in Chinese, Tagalog, French, German, Spanish (listening, Bill?). When you can say "hello, how are you" to a foreign visitor it is disarming and breaks down cultural barriers and biases. Knowledge is power, no matter what language it comes in. Fear not the gods of polyglotism. Language is what brings us all together. Xin dahn quailuh (Merry Christmas in Chinese) (:>
Posted by Donald Cormac at December 9, 2005 08:20 AMRobert Reich weighs in on the inevitable result of the class warfare being waged over tax cuts.
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 08:21 AMHappy Holidays and Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to all my fellow travelers.
I am a full time student and like full time students everywhere, this time of year means one thing.
Time to go to work and make some spare change. So from today untill classes start again I will out of action.
Some will cheer my going loudly, some will sigh with relief, and most won't give a rats-ass.
Me, I will miss the wonderfull discourse with my fellow moonbats. Hopefully there will still be some Fitzimas left when I come back, so dont be greedy and save me some.
Later days for now.
Posted by SnarkyShark at December 9, 2005 08:39 AMDonald Cormac,
Joyeux Noel a toi!
Je parle le Francais. Et mes filles aussi. L'espagnol est ses troisieme langue. Le plus le meilleur!
J'ai etudie le francais a une adulte.
Bonne journee.
Posted by snark at December 9, 2005 08:45 AMEnjoy SnarkyShark!
I used to do tile work during college breaks back in the 80's. $200 a day! Cash! Pretty good back in the day. Got me through the semester. Pretty shitty work in the freezing New York winters though.
Posted by snark at December 9, 2005 08:48 AMHey someone else beat me to the punch on both the Reich and Greenspan articles! Guess that's what happens when you're not a morning person.
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 08:53 AMTaking the "War on Christmas" just a little too far
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 09:47 AMDCCC is circulating a petition from Jack Murtha that demands an honest debate on the war.
There are many other petitions...I am just waiting for the one on Articles of Impeachment.
Posted by Anjha at December 9, 2005 09:55 AMSnark: Merci beaucoup! Oo Hannukah Mikudeshet alechenoo (sorry, that doesn't transliterate so well, try reading it from right to left). (;>
Posted by Donald Cormac at December 9, 2005 10:10 AMMuckcat -- we send Heifer Project gifts. You can give a wide variety of things on behalf of someone, from trees to chicks to bees, llamas, goats, water buffalo, or heifers. (All price ranges, from $10-20 to $500.)
The Project recipients (worldwide, including in the U.S.) are given culturally-appropriate animals and training on how to care for them. They then pass the first progeny of their animal on to another Heifer recipient.
The animals provide:
1) protein (eggs, milk, meat),
2)animal labor (plowing, pest control, pollination), and
3) marketable goods (either food or something like woolen goods)
It starts with one family, but the hope is that the flock/herd/whatever grows to help support more people in the community, too.
It goes beyond the whole "teach a man to fish" idea, too....it's a great gift to heighten kids' awareness of what others need. I started getting Heifer cards (an explanation what was sent) from my grandfather, so we're hoping our nieces and nephews start to "get it" and understand why we give these gifts, too.
Posted by Kaleefornian at December 9, 2005 12:49 PMIf you read Greenspan's comments, he said that the problem in the US was education...
If you read Reich's comments, he said that if we don't raise taxes, entitlement programs would be cut. He's right. But we'd have to cut them even if we raised taxes, too.
The problem is that this nation is living beyond its means. We can't afford to have health care for everyone, retirement for everyone, affordable housing for everyone, college educations for everyone, etc.
This utopian dream of everybody having all they want of everything has never been implemented. We won't do it, either.
Posted by muckdog at December 9, 2005 02:43 PMHealthcare for all - can we afford it? Here's a Republican who thinks we can.
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 03:06 PMpuppyboy, and what is one thing that Bushco's policies have cut and underfunded? Yes and what has Buscho made more difficult for anyone except the Have mores and Have way mores from getting????? Gee let me guess, can you say E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N, puppyboy? Yes that other important point Greenspan was making (gee he can make more than one point at a time.... go figure mucky...try to keep up boy). Yes a college education, the cost of which has risen much faster than most average working people's wages and the rate of inflation.
But since you're the delusional eternal Buscho economic optimist who considers himself one of the have mores or have way more, here's something interesting about that wonderful Bushco economy and your talking point about home ownership being at record levels, that is occuring in this neck of the country. You know this is in state where the salaries and amount of people who have college degrees is higher than other parts of the country.
btw,the article mentions Essex County, a county with many Have mores and Have Way More people (the people who got a huge Bush tax cut) within it....foreclosures up 50% this past year.
Ann, I can't get to that link. Either I have to be a subscriber, or Karl Rove ordered Time to take down that webpage!
We'll get our first idea how much health care will cost with Bush's Prescriptions for Seniors. We'll see if those costs projections hold true, or if costs skyrocket beyond expectations. Because my thought is that all cost estimates for national health care are severely underestimated.
In other economic news on how Americans are doing...
Since the end of 2002, family net wealth has increased 31 percent or $12 trillion dollars. The value of homes rose 39 percent or $5.8 trillion. The value of stocks increased 36 percent or $2.7 trillion, while family owned businesses rose 32 percent or $1.6 trillion.
Posted by muckdog at December 9, 2005 03:35 PMwhat is one thing that Bushco's policies have cut and underfunded? Yes and what has Buscho made more difficult for anyone except the Have mores and Have way mores from getting????? Gee let me guess, can you say E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N
Studies have shown that funding levels are not the issue with the US education system.
For example, throwing more money at schools has landed CA near the bottom.
home ownership being at record levels
Folks had an opportunity to lock in long-term rates at record lows recently. Looks like some decided to gamble that historically low rates would be here indefinitely.
But, oh well. I'm sure many of these folks were buying internet stocks in 1999, emal.
All manias end badly.
Posted by muckdog at December 9, 2005 03:43 PMStudies have shown that funding levels are not the issue with the US education system
What reputable independent studies..links please.
But I wasn't talking just about public K-12 education funding, I was talking about policies to assist with college and graduate education funding, federal grants and such...you know things that helped me get my college education.
And wasn't that the point you noted that Greenspan was making about a the cause of a bivariate income...that was all. I really wasn't trying to argue here...honest.
We'll get our first idea how much health care will cost with Bush's Prescriptions for Seniors. We'll see if those costs projections hold true, or if costs skyrocket beyond expectations. Because my thought is that all cost estimates for national health care are severely underestimated.
Posted by muckdog at December 9, 2005 03:35 PM
Muck, as much as it would be great to be able to use the Prescription Drug Fiasco as some kind of way to measure possible healthcare costs, it can't be done.
That 'Plan' was made to benefit the pharmaceutical companies - not the people. (PharmCos give way big to Republican campaigns.)
As a result the bill was written with no negotiating power in it. We have to pay full price for all meds through this plan, instead of using the power of buying in large quantity. Also, the plan is going through the insurance companies not through Medicare.
So, pharmCo makes out like bandits, ins co makes out like bandits and once again, American people get screwed.
Posted by Anjha at December 9, 2005 04:25 PMOh and we already have National Healthcare. Medicare. Medicare is in place and could be tweaked to cover all people.
US spends more in health ins costs that any other Nation with National Healthcare.
I think that it could be done easier than we are being led to believe.
Posted by Anjha at December 9, 2005 04:27 PMAnn, I can't get to that link. Either I have to be a subscriber, or Karl Rove ordered Time to take down that webpage!
Works on my end....worked at work and now at home and I am not a subscriber.
Here's the address:
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,1137628,00.html
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 07:19 PMStudies have shown that funding levels are not the issue with the US education system
Pell Grants, muck. Bush slashed the hell out of them.
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 07:20 PMstraight truth about the bush economy
Real median household income has fallen each year Bush has been in office and by nearly $1,700 since the recession 2001 [U.S. Census Bureau, Income Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2004, Aug. 2005, Table A-1.]
The poverty rate has risen each year since the end of the recession—from 11.7% in 2001 to 12.7% last year as 4 million people fell into poverty. [Census, Aug. 2005, Table B-1]
The personal savings rate has plummeted this year, hitting -2.18% in August—a level not seen since the Great Depression. [Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)]
Americans now pay a record 13.6% of their disposable income to service their debt. Since we’ve had to borrow at record rates to spend beyond our means, debt burdens have risen considerably. [Federal Reserve]
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 07:28 PMAnn, perhaps you missed the 2000-2 bear market. Lots of people saw their wages slashed. Not really a Bush thing. Do a wiki lookup on economic cycles.
The late 90's were a mania. All manias end badly. From Holland's Tulip Bulb mania to the recent Internet mania. And maybe even the real estate mania.
Posted by muckdog at December 9, 2005 08:27 PMYou're nothing if not predictable, muck. (Actually was thinking that perhaps you should change your moniker to "smugdog." So much more apropos.)
It doesn't matter how many economists we point out to you who disagree with your contention that everything is going great, you've already decided and you have an excuse for everything. It doesn't matter how they back up their contention with cold, hard facts, either.
Of course, you didn't address this point:
The poverty rate has risen each year since the end of the recession—from 11.7% in 2001 to 12.7% last year as 4 million people fell into poverty.
Probably because it points the fact that your point (for which you did not provide a source) about concentration of "wealth" is clearly all rising to the top while the rest of America, well, gets ignored.
Debt is up, savings down, so who do you suppose has all this "wealth?" Yup, that elite investor class. It's amazing how well you can do in this economy if you already have wealth.
Posted by ann at December 9, 2005 09:21 PM
Muck, don't you think your time would be better spent over at an investment blog?
Posted by Judith at December 9, 2005 09:38 PM