Given the obvious fact that this administration is motivated by politics alone, I think we have to assume that these warrantless wiretaps were driven by political considerations, and that they were conducted on numerous political enemies.
Posted by Mr. Ed at December 19, 2005 08:46 AMIf anyone questions Bush about anything, they hate America and are helping the terrorists.
Posted by a troll at December 19, 2005 08:56 AMNo SSDD, yours are.
Posted by Steve Soto at December 19, 2005 09:10 AMSSDD, You mean the Nukes and WMD's we found in Iraq? Or the Nukes that Bush isn't working on securing That Are in former USSR countries? WHo's priorities are Fucked?
Posted by Goose1 at December 19, 2005 09:19 AMSSDD
We are not talking about wire taps being wrong. We are talking about illegal wire taps being wrong, unconstitutional, and dictatorial.
Are you really this dumb or just pretending?
I on the other hand will gladly give up a few rights that don't effect me to save my children's life.
That sound you hear is the founding fathers rolling over in their graves at the sight of cowardly Americans like you.
Not to mention the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE that Bush saved, or would have saved, a single life by circumventing the FISA court. His defensive ramblings this morning about "changing phone numbers" and other gibberish about the need to "act fast" to defend us against "the enemy" are just more justifications from a wannabe authoritarian.
What other "inherent" powers to wage the "war on terror" does he think he possesses? Jailing political opponents? Dissolving Congress? Cancelling elections?
"Open debate about law lets the Enemy adjust."
If that quote from the President doesn't scare you then you aren't paying attention.
I want to know where SSDD lives. Probably someplace out in the boonies like Montana that's really likely to get hit by one of these terrorist nukes. Those of us who live in places that might really be targeted take a more realistic view. Giving up these freedoms means we NEVER get them back for generations and generations to come. I would gladly sacrifice myself and, yes, even my children for the ideals this country once stood for.
Posted by walldon at December 19, 2005 09:31 AMSSDD, The money the bu$h administration has spent on propaganda inside Iraq and Afghanistan, we could have bought and destroyed a shit load of nukes from Russia!
The money were spending in Iraq we could have bought the rest!
From Warandpiece:
The case Bush cited yesterday - of two San Diego based hijackers al Hazmi and al-Mihdhar and their overseas communications -- as a justification for going around the FISA court to use the NSA to spy on Americans making calls overseas -- really makes no sense.
They had been monitoring these people, prior to 911. Why didn't they do something about them then?
It sure makes my conspiracy alarm go off. We don't want FISA to know about these people because.....?
My guess is that, beyond these 911 related people , they were spying for purely political reasons, as they tend to do everything that way. Also what's the relationship between this story & John Revoltons confirmation hearings where the senate Dems wanted the names of the people the NSA had been tapping.
Keep digging Steve et al.
ssdd
how sad that you have bought into the fear that binds you. You are no safer now than you were 5 years ago.
SSDD, You fucking little prick, Why are we in Iraq!!! They didn't have any WMD's We are not the world police? Who the fucking Moron, You dumb shit!
Posted by Goose1 at December 19, 2005 09:37 AMSteve, how do you know that arrests haven't been made? You have the luxury of being able to criticize while the President obviously can't disclose everything that is going on behind the scenes. Or do you want the terrorists to know everything we are doing.
Of course the answer to that for liberal politicians in DC is "yes" if it serves their purpose to try and bring down President Bush.
This leak is a new low in politics for liberals. Just keep it up and see how much more in the minority you'll be next year in the mid-terms. People like Reid and Pelosi look like complete idiots. And you can include Murtha considering he wrote an op-ed piece yesterday bemoaning how all was lost in Iraq, 3 days after a VERY successful election. You people are not dealing in reality.
BTW, at least Bush isn't rounding up Arab-Americans and putting them in containment camps like FDR (Democrat's hero) did to Japanese-Americans in the 1940's.
Posted by david at December 19, 2005 09:40 AMWhat Kilgore Trout said.
This NSA issue is not about terrorists or national security. Its about the deliberate abdication of Rule of Law. Period. Its fucking EASY to go to the special judicial panel and get a fucking WARRANT to do this shit. These Rovian pricks DELIBERATELY and REPEATEDLY ignored that simple little safeguard because they BELIEVE THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW, in some perverse way, because of an attack on American soil that they failed to prevent. Think about that for a second: BushCorp believes that it has acquired divine militaristic rights via its own national security failure. Nice logic, fuckheads. But I digress.
In any event, you neocon Rovian fascist fucks, you're not above the law. In fact, you're going down under the weight of it. And if you think for a second that you can impose a lawless dictatorship upon this nation, you better prepare yourselves for the fucking afterlife, because that's where you'll be residing.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 09:48 AMDavid, How come you aren't concerned when the Bush administrations leaks the names of a undercover CIA agent? How do you know the leak came from a liberal? It came from someone in his administration, which of course is full of liberals. If he was so concerned about the leak why didn't he investigate a year ago when it was leaked (not a year later after he asked the paper not to print it over a year ago)?
Posted by Goose1 at December 19, 2005 09:51 AMI suspect SSDD is a bit dim..
[H]ow do you know that arrests haven't been made? You have the luxury of being able to criticize while the President obviously can't disclose everything that is going on behind the scenes. Or do you want the terrorists to know everything we are doing.
Well, if they're arresting American citizens, we know because criminal trials are public, and/or the people being held have the writ of habeas corpus. Or, rather, this is how we would know if this were still a nation of laws.
Posted by dj moonbat at December 19, 2005 09:52 AMSteve, how do you know that arrests haven't been made?
Our Justice Dept puts out press alerts when they make arrests. Emphasizing arrests would clearly dissuade the terrorists and show how successful our program is. Once they are arrested, there's no more need for secrets.
BTW, at least Bush isn't rounding up Arab-Americans and putting them in containment camps like FDR (Democrat's hero) did to Japanese-Americans in the 1940's.
No, he just has them rounded up and sent to Egypt or Cuba or wherever he can get away with exquisite torture.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 09:52 AMWhy won't the trolls debate the salient points of the argument instead of hurling insults. I never understood that. I guess knowledge=Power is inoperative to them. They've simplified the equation, out of need, to 'me right=you wrong", and don't ask me to explain why.
fdr? I mean really, wtf does he have to do with any of this?
How about Nixon, a hero to trolls everywhere!!!
oh great another stupid bushlicker sidekick named david appears.
What part of the Bushco pageantry Administration have you missed over this past 5 years david? Did you forget about Mission Accomplished 2 years ago? Are we not still at War David?
Or better yet, did you forget about how much a coincidence it was that just before election time 2004, the administration prematurely announced the name of some senior active Al Qaida operative that had been captured. Great success it was.... except for the fact he had flipped and the Brits and Pakastani's were still using him as a mole to capture more Al Qaida who got away before they were captured because of that announcement by the US! What alternate rose colored universe are you living in david, you know, the one where Bush never touts any of his successes..I got a piece of ocean front property I will sell you real cheap.
The goal of these postings by literal brownshirts like SS(gruppenfuhrer)DD is to divert our attention from the enormity of Bush's illegal action.
The president has admitted that he has willfully and intentionally violated the requirements of a federal statute directly applicable to him which was duly enacted by Congress and signed by the executive.
And he has openly boasted to the American Lout class that he will continue to violate this federal statute.
This is a constitutional crisis. Such things come along in our history. How the Congress reacts will be indicative of the current strength of our democracy.
Please call your elected Congressional representatives and tell them you are outraged at the president's admitted violation of federal law and request.
Ask them to denounce the president and demand that Bush's executive branch immediately come into compliance with FISA.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 10:02 AMTrolls in support of totalitarainism in all it's forms!
Guess which party wants to destroy the american govt by "starving it till it's small enough to drown in a bathtub"
Who's gonna protect you, and your kids then?
The NRA?
"If he was so concerned about the leak why didn't he investigate a year ago when it was leaked (not a year later after he asked the paper not to print it over a year ago?"
A really interesting point goose!
Will Bush and Company really try to track down the leaker,or do they view that as a perilous venture?
Posted by Kevin at December 19, 2005 10:12 AMBush is spying on journalists (among others). That is my take on this. bush did not go to the courts because he is spying on journalists, bloggers, etc.
Posted by jj at December 19, 2005 10:22 AMI want to know where SSDD lives
45 min. from Chicago. Well inside the danger zone.
Posted by SSDD at December 19, 2005 10:09 AM
*****
More detail, please.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 10:23 AMSteve: silly you, why do you think the CIA has to have 30 planes to fly folks over to the interrogation prisons that don't exist?
Posted by mainsailset at December 19, 2005 10:24 AM45 min. from Chicago. Well inside the danger zone. Posted by SSDD at December 19, 2005 10:09 AM
I call dibs. Or for a midwestern Left Coaster meetup.
Better yet, I have some guys I know in Evanston who owe me a favor.
Posted by idiosynchronic at December 19, 2005 10:31 AMAre those the 30 planes used to fly Bin-Fergotten's family out of the US in Sept 2001?
Posted by Sharon at December 19, 2005 10:35 AMssdd,
then why are you here?
If you have nothing to add to the conversation, leave.
Oh I see. You would like the NSA to open their doors to the public and revel everything they know of what could of happened and to whom. Shit lets just get rid of the CIA, NSA, and another other 3 letter word. Open the doors boys, it's a free country. Unlock your doors, open the curtains, the liberals want to know all your secrets.
Posted by SSDD at December 19, 2005 09:56 AM
So let me get this straight:
You would like the American public to open their doors to the traitors in the junta illegally occupying the White house and reveal everything they know of what could of happened in their lives and to whom - just because a drunken cokeheaded fratboy who thinks he's king of the world says so. Shit lets just get rid of the constitutiuon, the Bill of Rights, and the government that the US has had for over two hundred years. Open the doors boys, it's a free country. Unlock your doors, open the curtains, the Repugnicant assholes want to know all your secrets.
Sorta sounds a little bit different now, doesn't it you fucking piece of shit traitor?
Hope you like it just as much when they open up a file on your ass.
Smarter Putsch fellating traitors, please...
Posted by (: Tom :) at December 19, 2005 10:40 AMyeah, we're the morons who somehow know so much more than you do, SSDD--First off, there's this goddamn piece of paper called 'The Constitution,' and it is what this country was built upon. You, in your infinite wisdom, know so much more than us morons--why, you just know so much, about how preznit Bush is a heckuva guy, and he's doing a heckuva job protecting our country.
oooh, you're 45 minutes from Chicago? you're right in Ground Zero! you're so brave! how many ribbon magnets do you have on your SUV?
Posted by leftAhead at December 19, 2005 10:43 AM
SSSD:
You wrote above, "That's [a Constitutional crisis] what the ACLU said while defending NAMBLA."
What's your source? Give me a fact I can check. Tell me where, in a verifiable record, the ACLU claimed there was a Constitutional crisis involving NAMBLA.
Posted by Mr. Ed at December 19, 2005 10:54 AMJust wonder what would stop the Administration with sharing that wiretapped info with people like Delay (renegade Democrats) or with big oil to help whatever crazy idea they have of fair play. Just a thought.
Posted by Pancho at December 19, 2005 10:58 AMoooh yeah, a fight in Hooters parking lot--that'll really teach us who's a moron!
what's your night job, low-level thug muscle? i'll bet that's where your blind obedience comes from--i've heard they're looking for some good subcontractors for dark prison ops--should be right up your alley SSDD.
also, I hate to show up your lack of intelligence, but 'liberal' is a political orientation, not a political party. or were you at the gym when this class was being held?
An intelligent American citizen is educated to understand that his ass is best protected when his rights are protected.
I thought we were supposed to be willing to die for our rights. One of our rights is that the executive branch complies with federal law.
Obviously SS(gruppenfuher)DD is unaware of these basic tenets of American citizenship.
To paraphrase a great poet, "Intellectual disgrace stares from every Right Wing face".
Particularly SSDD's.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 11:05 AM
Oh I see. You would like the NSA to open their doors to the public and revel everything they know of what could of happened and to whom.
Nice straw man.
Bush has not offered one single iota of evidence as to why he needed to circumvent the court that was set up for exactly this type of surveillance. The court that has approved 99.99% of requests for surveillance. All he says is that he needs to "move fast", which as others have noted is no justification at all since the law allows 72 hours after the tap has been placed for the government to seek a warrant. Given the history of this administration, anyone with a modicum of common sense should be concerned. Obviously that parameter excludes you.
Look, if you want to piss on the consitution because you are trembling in fear of bad guys that's your problem.
Posted by Kilgore Trout at December 19, 2005 11:14 AMI'm not after Republicans. I'm after fascist nazis.
You nazi fucks are not going to win, and I'm going to make certain that result.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 11:15 AMPick a day. Say Hooters off of IL. Rte 59 in Naperville. Nothing like an ass kicking and hot wings in the afternoon.
Naperville. And Hooters. That explains oh, so much.
It's funny, I live in Chicago and as much as I want to be safe from terrorism (foreign and domestic) I don't want illegal wiretaps.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 11:16 AMHis Imperial Majesty Georgie III, Prince Big Time, Baron Abu Gonzales, and their closest courtiers don't want anyone to know who they're spying on, not even the courts. They're running a Star Chamber monarchy.
Posted by Red_Neck_Repub at December 19, 2005 11:17 AMIt will prove my point that liberals are not the party of free speech and tolerance. It's the party of closet fascists.
Yeah, right, we don't buy into illegal wire taps and we're somehow against free speech? You're welcome to spout your hatred wherever you want but don't expect that we are going to agree.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 11:18 AMSlightly off topic.But you all can get back to the throw-down in a minute....
From Raw Story:
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Democrats_plan_sharp_rebuke_of_prewar_1219.html
Democrats plan sharp rebuke of pre-war intelligence, Iraq war in massive new congressional report
Larisa Alexandrovna and John Byrne
House Judiciary Committee Democrats, spearheaded by Congressman John Conyers (D-MI), are set to release possibly the sharpest congressional critique to date surrounding Iraq, RAW STORY has learned.
The report, titled "The Constitution in Crisis: The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution and Coverups in the Iraq War," is slotted to be made available to the public Tuesday. RAW STORY acquired a copy of the book’s cover and some additional information about the document today.
According to Democratic aides, the report will focus on alleged manipulation of pre-war intelligence by the White House, specifically covering such topics as the Downing Street Minutes as well as the White House position on the Geneva Conventions and international law as regards its policies toward prisoners of war. Sources say the report is slated to be published as a book.
Advertisement
The ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, Conyers had previously pushed for an inquiry into the Downing Street Minutes, official minutes of a 2002 meeting among British Prime Minister Tony Blair, members of British intelligence MI-6, as well as Bush administration advisers. Most notably, the minutes included a comment from British intelligence director Richard Dearlove, who was quoted in a secret meeting before the war as saying "intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
The Downing Street Minutes were first reported in the British press by the Sunday London Times, and then carried across the Atlantic by RAW STORY. This site obtained copies from British sources, which along with a push from activists, subsequently spawned a flurry of stories in major U.S. newspapers and on U.S. television networks.
Posted by Kevin at December 19, 2005 11:21 AMWell since the invasion of Bush apologists the level of conversation has taken a marked downturn here.
That pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
And it is funny to read a guy who's in favor of the government having the ability to monitor the private conversations of American citizens without recieving a warrant or a court order complain about Democrats being anti-free speech.
That's rich.
Posted by snark at December 19, 2005 11:42 AMHooters? In Naperville?
Hilarious.
If that doesn't scream "PATHETIC LOSER", nothing does.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 11:56 AMRiddle me this SSDD:
What rights are you willing to give up to protect your children? Any of your rights, or only other people's?
How about that "right" to have a handgun? 30,000+ lives could be saved annually...each person is someone's child. It's a much better bet that your children will be killed with a legally-bought gun than by a terrorist.
Remember this poem when you talk about the taking of rights not mattering because it doesn't affect you:
When they came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Please everyone, let us not compair people of flawed intellect to SSDD, I am certain they are superior in every way!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by coblin at December 19, 2005 12:11 PMoops, compare not ir(ate)
Posted by coblin at December 19, 2005 12:19 PMI was just thinking of all of the new terms and phrases that are now commonplace in our venacular.
"WMD" - "War on Terror" - "Islamofacist" - "Torture Memo" - "Downing Street Memo" - "Fight them over there instead of over here" - "9-11" - "Saddamist" - "Rejectionist" - "Insurgent" - "IED" - "Terrorist" - "Leaks" - "Detainee" - "Pandemic" - "Rendition" - "Attack" - "Evildoers"
I could go on, but holy fuck, look at the psych ops done to the American people. These are all new and generally accepted terms in our language. This is ridiculous and we need to stop this.
The whole be afraid be very afraid thing is getting real old and I am very tired of them using this against us.
Posted by Anjha at December 19, 2005 12:23 PMI'm afraid the pres is insane. Impeach him before he starts another war. impeachbush.org
Posted by california_reality_check at December 19, 2005 12:24 PMI just don't get trolls like sswhatever. Does he think the rest of us don't have children? Does he think we don't have families? Does he think we don't live in the same country, with the same risks of getting 'blowed up' or 'glowed up' that he does? Is it possible that we don't, also, want to be safe? If we, too, want to be safe then surely what we are arguing about is tactics--what will make us safer, and from what threats, not objectives (maybe there is someone out there saying "yay! I want to be blown up by terrorists!" but I have yet to meet them, and I live in ground zero for liberal terrarists Cambridge MA).
We all assume we are sharing risks with him--why does he think he's not sharing risks with us? Is it the same sense of isolation and cowardice that makes it impossible for him to imagine sharing the risk of being surveilled? arrested? tortured? Does he know for a fact that, regardless of the nature of his government, he would never, ever, do anything that would put him at risk of notice--arrest--torture? A sad admission for an american to make. To me the proudest part of being an american is, of course, free speech and the constitution. You can melt me and my kids if that is going to be taken away from us without a fight. SSwhatever can't make the same claim, I guess, because he'd rather give up what makes america different than piss off the temporary governnment of george bush.
what a pathetic loser. Hooters in naperville would be just his thing (I used to live in chicago so I know just how pathetic that wouldhave to be) but I doubt the missus would let him go without clopping him up the head. If he has a wife. Or children.
aimai
Posted by aimai at December 19, 2005 12:27 PMaimai, He doesn't think and he would half to ask his mom if it was ok to go.
Posted by goose1 at December 19, 2005 12:33 PMSounds like god of war is a chicken, hiding behind a blog skirt. He talks a lot of smack, but it looks like all talk. Hey another $10, thanks!
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 12:39 PMSounds like god of war is a chicken, hiding behind a blog skirt. He talks a lot of smack, but it looks like all talk. Hey another $10, thanks!
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 12:39 PM
*****
I've been called a lot of things to my face, but "chicken" and "coward" have never been amongst them.
I'd welcome you to try it, though, you little nazi fuck.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 12:49 PMHitler didn't care about families and children, and neither does SSDD and the rest. You are seeing pure evil post on this Blog. Zieg heil.
Posted by Judith at December 19, 2005 01:06 PMCoward. So scared of your shadow, you'll give away your and your family's freedom. What a wuss.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 19, 2005 01:18 PMYou people bore me.
Then go away and don't come back. We don't need you here if you are too mentally flatlined to contribute something of value.
Posted by pessimist at December 19, 2005 01:25 PMSpying on American journalist. You MF**kers deserve it. You never thought this day would come did you? You cowtailed to the traitor in the WH. You wrote and spoke each and every line of the propaganda you were told to write and speak. You failed to call a lie, a lie. You failed to expose fraud, corruption, deceit and criminal activities. And, just like SSDD, you thought somehow you would be spared. Yeah, you deserve to have your phones taped and correspondence read, because you NEVER ONCE stood up for the truth. Well you whores, just where did it get ya?
Posted by Judith at December 19, 2005 01:28 PMSSDD is yet another example of the results of fearmongering in the United States. The United States has a proud tradition of fearmongering and power grabbing. The most obvious examples are McCarthyism and Japanese American internment.
I just love David's example above in which he attempts to say that: UUh,uuh the Democrats did it toooooo.... and Uhh,uuh it is not as bad as internment you should be satisfied with that.
Sheesh David, you make the points of a 10 year trying to avoid getting in trouble for breaking the cookie jar. Please do us a favor and grow up a little.
This kind of bullshit happened in WWI when good patriots did the following:
The citizens of Collinsville, IL decided that another member of their town was a German spy. They dragged him into the street, wrapped him a flag and killed him.
Beethoven was banned in Pittsburgh
A group of people pissed that the Quakers were not buying Liberty Bonds confiscated their vehicles and sold them.
ON and ON and ON
It is clear from our history that this kind of fear inspired bigotry and our Government's actions to restrict civil rights feeds one upon another and leads to deaths of innocents, confiscation of property, and loss of reputations.
And you David and SSDD are GUTLESS COWARDS, you do not appear to have the ability to recognize the danger your beliefs pose to the Constitution and our civil rights. You are ignorant of the past and as the saying goes you are destined to repeat them.
The two of you are traitors to the ideals of freedom in this country and you are bootlickers to a political ideology. You are bootlickers to the most powerful man in the world. Unfortunately he is fallible and perhaps worse he is arrogant and appears to think he is above the law.
THAT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT TO YOUR CHILDREN YOU FOOLS.
Thank God that we the form of government that allows us to swing back to sanity in times such as this. I am optimistic that we will because this crap is out in the open and history has shown us the we can swing back to sanity.
Posted by j swift at December 19, 2005 01:32 PMSSDD, Certainly missed my point! As much as were spending on the defense budget, Iraq, and other such adventures, there is no doubt we could disarm the whole world.
Yes, money would buy everything. To bad it would spoil his neo-con agenda for lies, war, wire tapping and profiteering!
The funniest thing is that SSDD is most hurt by the thought that the ACLU card carrying liberal looks down on his choice of entertainment. Geez, I belong to the ACLU because of the whole NAMBLA thing--isn't it SSDD who thinks the ACLU exists to protect NAMBLA?--so you can bet that Hooters isn't my venue of choice. (Joke, I'm actually a straight, married, white woman but oh well).
What is it with the right wing? They really can dish it out but not take it. Guess what SSDD? the upper class republicans despise you too. Everyone despises you. Ken Lay just referred to people who serve on juries (as opposed to his friends) as "people too stupid to get out of jury duty." People who live "45 minutes" from important places (like cities) are even more despised. frankly, there is no one on either side of the fence who wouldn't have absolute contempt for someone like you who would willingly sell their birthright of constiutional and civil liberties for the mess o'potamia that is what Bush is offering you. To the left you are an example of the failures of our educational system, to the right you are the moronic voting bloc that they sucker again and again with false promises of candy. But no one respects you--hooters or not.
aimai
Posted by aimai at December 19, 2005 02:14 PMGod, for three years we have been having to listen to the Right Wing tell us that there is no higher priority, than establishing the human rights of Iraqis by deposing a dictator and installing the rule of law in Iraq, despite our misgivings about the enormous cost and dubious likelihood of success.
Now they literally have NO CONCERN about the American chief executive openly declaring he is violating a duly enacted law of the United States aimed at protecting civil liberties.
And that they feel much safer having their own dictator "protect" them rather than live in a republic of laws.
One side of their brain doesn't know what the other side is thinking.
I think we're reaching the end of the line for continuing to exist as a unified nation. At least 40% of the population are fucking out of their minds.
A democratic republic cannot survive with such citizens.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 02:17 PMGonzales and Hayden also implied that there's new, more immediate and agile wiretapping technology, which necessitated an end run around FISA. But they won't elaborate on the legal rationale for circumventing FISA or FISA's technological shortcomings. What is the new technology? What is the legal rationale? Why won't they disclose this?
Q Sir, can you explain, please, the specific inadequacies in FISA that have prevented you from sort of going through the normal channels?
GENERAL HAYDEN: One, the whole key here is agility. And let me re-trace some grounds I tried to suggest earlier. FISA was built for persistence. FISA was built for long-term coverage against known agents of an enemy power. And the purpose involved in each of those -- in those cases was either for a long-term law enforcement purpose or a long-term intelligence purpose.
This program isn't for that. This is to detect and prevent. And here the key is not so much persistence as it is agility. It's a quicker trigger. It's a subtly softer trigger. And the intrusion into privacy -- the intrusion into privacy is significantly less. It's only international calls. The period of time in which we do this is, in most cases, far less than that which would be gained by getting a court order. And our purpose here, our sole purpose is to detect and prevent.
Gonzales is asked why they didn't push Congress to revise FISA? Gonzales answered that they spoke in private to several members of Congress about doing that, but were told it would be highly unlikely. At a time of war, why would it be unlikely?
Then Hayden says something that makes me nervous about how NSA decides who to wiretap:
Q And who determined that these targets were al Qaeda? Did you wiretap them?
GENERAL HAYDEN: The judgment is made by the operational work force at the National Security Agency using the information available to them at the time, and the standard that they apply -- and it's a two-person standard that must be signed off by a shift supervisor, and carefully recorded as to what created the operational imperative to cover any target, but particularly with regard to those inside the United States.
Q So a shift supervisor is now making decisions that a FISA judge would normally make? I just want to make sure I understand. Is that what you're saying?
YIKES!
Posted by Leslie at December 19, 2005 02:29 PMIs all this nazi-bashing really necessary?
Posted by US Senator Prescott Bush (R-Hell) at December 19, 2005 02:31 PMCheney's on Nightline tonight. Here's a teaser for you:
Cheney: And that when we have a situation where we have communication between someone inside the U.S. and an acknowledged al Qaeda or terrorist source outside the U.S., that that's something we need to know.
And he has authorized us to look at that. And it is, in fact, consistent with the constitution. It's been reviewed. It's reviewed every 45 days by the president himself, by the attorney general of the U.S., by the president's council, by the director of CIA.
It's been briefed to the Congress over a dozen times. And, in fact, it is a program that is, by every effort we've been able to make, consistent with the statutes and with the law. It's the kind of capability [that], if we'd had before 9/11, might have led us to be able to prevent 9/11.
We had two 9/11 terrorists in San Diego prior to the attack in contact with al Qaeda sources outside the U.S. We didn't know it. The 9/11 Commission talks about it. If we'd had this capability, then we might well have been able to stop it.
Got that, folks? If only we'd allowed wire taps without warrants, we could have prevented 9/11.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 02:33 PMBut now that I'm thinkin' none of the 9/11 hijackers were American citizens.....they could have wiretapped all they wanted.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 02:46 PMI suspect SSDD is a bit dim..
Posted by Lincoln72 at December 19, 2005 09:51 AM
I am from the NSA and have been listening to SSDD for a while. SSDD stands for surely sucks donkey dicks in some obscure Muslim dialect. Remember it's not spying it's freedom listening!
Posted by gopAssKicker at December 19, 2005 03:02 PM"The only thing I'm afraid of is people like you running this great country of ours into the ground."
Posted by SSDD at December 19, 2005 01:13 PM
Is there no alertness here that this country has already been run into the ground?
Lied into an illegal war, 8.1 trillion dollars in debt, this president has borrowed more in foreign debt that ALL previous presidents combined, trade deficit at an all time high, jobs going overseas, refusal of the US to join in treaties and partner with the rest of the world for good things, torture, the whole world looks on us as evil and untrustworthy, rendition, prisoners, and now - the administration spies on us - our Constitution shit on.
I think that this country has pretty well already been run into the ground, dumb ass.
Do we not sound like we wish to save it?
The Bush wiretap revelations mean it's probably time to raise the Conservative Threat Level.
The Conservative Threat Level (CTL) is currently Orange/Elevated: Church and State to Merge.
Posted by AvengingAngel at December 19, 2005 04:12 PMThere isn't a troll here that the elite doesn't think is a "bottom feeder." I can guarantee those who think they are somehow immune to what is happening are fooling themselves. Although I am not among the elite, for a years I had a friend who was. In fact, it was her family that founded St. Louis, so she was in the Social Registry here. These people discriminate between those who have and those who have not, and people like Muck, SSDD, Cyber Sarge, Bendito, Peter, etc., are people who they look down upon. If you are not in the social register in this Country, then you are a nobody, plan and simple. In fact, they refused old man Busch (yes, the beer family in St. Louis) admittance into the St. Louis Country Club because his money wasn't "old enough." Yet, these baffoons that post here think that they can attach themselves to the ruling class and they will take care of them because of their politics. Guess what fools, they would hang you out to dry in a heart beat.
Posted by Judith at December 19, 2005 04:31 PMcultural revolution
From SouthCoastToday.com comes news that Department of Homeland Security officials visited an Umass Dartmouth senior, after he requested an inter-library loan of an official copy of Mao's Little Red Book for use in researching a term paper on totalitarianism. Only the incomparably obtuse will fail to grasp the irony here, blemished though it is with horror. Coming on the heels of reports that spies are monitorong war protesters, disobedient churches, and untold others, many of whom mistook what they were doing for an exercise of their constitutional rights, one supposes DHS officials have also visited 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. After all, the occupying regime has demonstarted its taste for the totalitarian.
Bloogers who support these Kafkaesque practices label those who disagree "Commies", without any apparent ear for the irony in what they say. For just such an example of the incomparably obtuse, I offer this from AnkleBitingPundits.com.
Posted by Will at December 19, 2005 04:49 PMThings seem to be a little hot over here today! I seem to remember one of the rules of the road being, "Play Nice". An interesting thing happens when we Play Nice, we all start listening to one another rather than tossing ugly language. Can we please get back to the facts cause I gotta tell ya, when you guys are good, you're really good at figuring things out and I miss that.
Posted by mainsailset at December 19, 2005 05:01 PMmainsailset, my friend
It's a shame that Mr. Rogers died. His neighborhood has been hijacked and corrupted by Bu$hco supporters We get to deal with that fact as well as we can.
As much as I would love to remain on the intellectual plane, when the barbarians show up, it's every man to the barracades.
Posted by pessimist at December 19, 2005 05:17 PMfrom Richard Clarke's book Against all Enemies:
Snatches, or more properly "extraordinary renditions," were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgement of the host government.... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, "That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass." (pp. 143-144)
So, rendition is a program set up by the previous democratic administration. Why no outrage then?
Oh, I forgot, you lefties only have a problem with civil rights when republicans are in office.
As a side note, I gained a minute amount of respect for Gore for his comment at the end.
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 05:53 PMallbull--
This thread is about illegal wiretapping, not grabbing of foreign nationals presumably wanted for violations of US law. (That's not rendition, by the way---at least not how the term has been used recently).
What was the date of Clarke's book? Did it come out during the Clinton Admin? I didn't think so. So there wasn't much that we lefties could have timely objected to.
Finally, if said terrorist was snatched and brought to America, he would have been charged with a crime (remember, this is pre-Bushco when the protections and prodedures of US criminal law were still operating) so he could have challenged the legality of his seizure, I believe.
The Reactionary Right: throw up a cloud of dust everywhere, blather and fulminate about anything other than the topic at hand---the president's admitted violation of federal law.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 06:12 PMOh you are talking about wire taps? How about this one?
On October 10, 1963, U.S. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy committed what is widely viewed as one of the most ignominious acts in modern American history: he authorized the Federal Bureau of Investigation to begin wiretapping the telephones of the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 06:15 PMConsidering that we have had so much attention from our wrong-wing friends today, they must be running scared. This can only be a good thing for America.
Merry Happy Kwaanz-anukkah-mas!
Posted by pessimist at December 19, 2005 06:17 PMThe Reactionary Right: throw up a cloud of dust everywhere, blather and fulminate about anything other than the topic at hand---the president's admitted violation of federal law.
Just easy pickins here pointing out the lefts hypocracy.
How about FDR (one of your heros is suppose)placing Japanese Americans in internment camps?? In my mind a little more powerful stripping away of civil rights that tracing and tapping phone numbers associated with known terrorists!
I've got more!
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 06:20 PMJesus Christ, allbull, is this just a game to you?
First, speaking for myself, I oppose this action by R. Kennedy and would have at the time, had I not been a child.
More importantly for this discussion, and perhaps you didn't know this, but the statute George Bush has openly and admittedly violated, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillence Act (FISA) was only enacted and signed into law in 1978, and I don't believe there was an equivalent statute involved in 1963.
This area has been a contentious one between Congress and the president for decades and FISA was the final agreed compromise between the two branches of government.
By all accounts it has been a success.
Until George Bush decided in 2002 he didn't have to follow federal law.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 06:27 PMI on the other hand will gladly give up a few rights that don't effect me to save my children's life. Your priorities are fucked. Posted by SSDDIt is sad to think about all those 10's of thousands of Americans who have sacrificed their lives to protect and maintain our constitutional freedoms and how easily petty tyrants like Bush will arrogate those same rights and pseudo-Americans like SSDD will give them up.
Just easy pickins here pointing out the lefts hypocracy. I've got more! Posted by nobull aExcellent, and I will be more than willing to condemn each and every one of them. Sorry, fella, being against all government abuse of power doesn't constitute "hypocrisy," just the opposite. It's spelled h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y and l-e-f-t-'-s. Posted by Mike at December 19, 2005 06:34 PM
What you reference definitely happened to Japanese-Americans, to FDR's (and America's} everlasting shame.
You may not be aware these wartime internment camps were even held NOT to violate the Constitution by a vote of 5-4 in the Supreme Court (to ITS everlasting shame).
But I'll very much enjoy seeing George Bush cite the now utterly discredited and reviled Korematsu decision to justify his violation of FISA.
If Bush's violation of FISA ever get's to the Supreme Court, it will be one of the greatest cases in our history!
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 06:38 PM
The Reactionary Right: throw up a cloud of dust everywhere, blather and fulminate about anything other than the topic at hand---the president's admitted violation of federal law.
Just easy pickins here pointing out the lefts hypocracy.
How about FDR (one of your heros is suppose)placing Japanese Americans in internment camps?? In my mind a little more powerful stripping away of civil rights that tracing and tapping phone numbers associated with known terrorists!
I've got more!
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 06:20 PM
*****
Dumbfuck.
Hypocrisy. Heroes. Learn to fucking spell. Why are you wingnuts all so Goddamned stupid?
(Rhetorical Question)
You have proof that those taps were of known terrorists? Didn't think so, asshole. In any event, fuckface, that is not the issue. The issue, shiteater, is that Bush deliberately, knowingly violated the law, and has now admitted to an impeachable offense.
You should be shitting bricks right about now. Its not everyday that a sitting president brags about committing an impeachable offense and promises to keep on committing said offense.
You morons are FUCKED, one way or another. Welcome to hell, bitch.
Posted by God Of War at December 19, 2005 06:38 PMPessimist: Oh, what the fuck, you're right, I'm tossing the cookies and lemonade and jumping into the fray. Post over on Josh's from Emptywheel which is pretty horrifying. The NSA wiretaps are "not a time issue but a method issue"
Posted by mainsailset at December 19, 2005 06:39 PMI've tried to fight the good fight today, an ominous day in our history.
Goodnight all.
Posted by euzoius at December 19, 2005 06:43 PMThe Attorney General's Office phone #: 202-514-2001
If we all call and ask for bu$h's arrest they will have to put us all on their list!
Posted by bbtb at December 19, 2005 06:55 PMbbtb
you can try, but my guess is that unless your computer or phone has been used to communicate with terrorists I seriously doubt it. They are looking for terrorists, not idiots.
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 07:05 PMyou can try, but my guess is that unless your computer or phone has been used to communicate with terrorists I seriously doubt it. They are looking for terrorists, not idiots.
Are you suggesting that we *gasp* trust the government? The same government that has lied, mislead and obfuscated for the past five years? The same government that has held phony press conferences, bought favorable press and attempted to squelch dissent at every turn? The same government that has been using the "Patriot Act" to go after drug suspects and porn? Do you believe everything that you read? Sure, they're only looking for terrorists. They wouldn't be looking for political enemies or anything like that. They would never, ever spy on honest Americans....even if there was an identity error.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 07:44 PMHow is it useful to shout down these spear carriers from the Right? They are hardly the warrior class fighting echelon. These are the ones who will melt away in a fight until the smoke clears, then they will sniff the air to see who has won and then gladly do the bidding of whatever master feeds them afterwards.
I believe I will keep my powder dry until there is the moment to engage the Enemies Of The State who are the actual foe. The ones who steal my liberty and call it profit for themselves. The rest are merely stooges and fall in line easily once they smell defeat. They are keen to it.
"This is the fight of our lives". If you do not believe it, you will not believe it. Let's take down the meaty ones and leave the others.
Posted by obelus at December 19, 2005 08:32 PMann,
The same government that has held phony press conferences, bought favorable press and attempted to squelch dissent at every turn?
Are you talking about the press conference where clintoon wagged his finger?? Or when Clintoon staged a photo op on the beach with some carefully arrainged rocks in the form of a cross? Or maybe when clintoon reviewed the FBI files of his opponents?? That could be it, yeah
Posted by nobull at December 19, 2005 08:59 PMMainsailset, AMEN! I miss the great postings by people here I can actually learn from. Insults get old fast. We are better than these trolls, so let's stop letting them frame the subject and then run away with the comment section.
Posted by Judith at December 19, 2005 08:59 PMNo, fullofbull, not at all.
Posted by ann at December 19, 2005 09:10 PMNa na na na na na, your side did it more than our side. What childishness. I don't care who did what, if it is wrong, then it is wrong, period. The subject at hand is the present, not the past.
Posted by Judith at December 19, 2005 09:10 PMWho are the targets? If the NSA's raptor system has been used in the US for 3+ years you can bet there is an extensive list of "keywords" and Finder Logs. Who was/is looking for what?
Another safe bet is that bushco will block any attempt,for anyone (read 'even normal oversite') to see them, as a matter of national security.
Any takers?
Some one said "no policy, only politics". Do I remember something about the Bolton hearings and NSA intercepts?
I, for one, Welcome our now Lemming Leaders!