Union pressure brought air-brakes, automatic pin couplers, and other safety measures to the railroads. Unions formed to insure workers for accidents, etc. Reagan showed us we don't need them. The top 1% should throw the workers an occasional bone, for their OWN good, no?
Posted by TIKI AL at January 5, 2006 02:45 AMI'm from a coal-mining family, in the UK.
Fact is, deep-mined coal is a killer, always has been and always will be. Dig shafts and tunnels deep into the ground and that ground will move on you, it will leak gas and water into those tunnels, the roof will fall unexpectedly. The men getting the coal are in cramped badly-ventilated badly-lit working spaces filled with powerful machinery. There are no toilets, no canteens, no places to wash up in underground. Lung diseases are common from breathing dust and gases.
Mine disasters are only news when the deaths happen a dozen at a time; the little disasters are the one-off deaths or the crippling accidents that smite a single family and they never make the national news, and they happen every week or every day.
As I said, I'm from a coal-mining family. That's one reason I get screaming-in-your-face angry when I hear Greens go on and on about how unsafe nuclear power is. If there had been widespread takeup of nukes in the 50s my father's knee would have still worked and he'd have been able to straighten his fingers properly.
Posted by Robert Sneddon at January 5, 2006 03:38 AMBecause dozens or even hundreds of irradiated or poisioned people for the one person it would have benefitted would have been worth it.
Face it - you just have a rationalization for going off on Greens and enviormentalists. And just as much fact to back up your beliefs as I posted in my first paragraph.
Posted by idiosynchronic at January 5, 2006 04:43 AMRepublicans say thus: They didn't have to work at that mine. They were aware of the safety issues and chose to continue. Regulation is not needed, the marketplace will dictate which companies prosper and which fail. If a company has lax safety practices, treats workers poorly, doles out substandard pay,has no fringe benefits and otherwise is undesirable to work for employees are free to seek employment elsewhere. Same goes for food and drugs and consumer products. If it's unsafe don't buy it because we're not gonna prevent it from being manufactured and sold.
Posted by steve duncan at January 5, 2006 04:53 AMYou could have made it a much shorter statement, Steve! "Let the buyer beware!"
Posted by pessimist at January 5, 2006 05:40 AMJust a suggestion for a thread……
A good deal of discussion between liberals and trolls here brings the terms “rich/wealthy” and “poor” into play.
It would be interesting, to me at least, to have these terms defined. Sure, someone making a million a year would fall into the rich category, as a family of four living on $12,000 a year would be poor. But what are the cutoff points? Does it vary by location and if so, how much?
This is not a Rovian trick question.
u jest do you ever honor your commitments? you stated after you were wrong about joe wilson's indictment you would stay off this site and here you are..what as deceitful bag of crap you are...
Posted by headxray at January 5, 2006 06:35 AMHeadcase,
On further investigation, the deal was Rove/Libby vs Joe/Val, not any variation thereof.
Talk to me if Rove gets indicted.
Posted by j.west at January 5, 2006 07:13 AMheadxray - you do realize the wingnut brigade has no honor? How could they when their hero changes or flauts the rule of law with abandon. u.jest is doing exactly what was expected, because he is a wingnut without honor.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 5, 2006 07:37 AMwell it is true jest is well known as an asshole extraordinaire...there is no doubt rove will be indicted jest..but you said you'd disappear if Wilson wasn't indicted...
Posted by headxray at January 5, 2006 07:50 AMWest STOP LIEING!!!! It was Libby Or Rove VS Joe or Valerie. You lost and now you try and change it. I Know what the bet was and you lost, deal with it.
Posted by Goose1 at January 5, 2006 07:54 AMFind it and repost it.
Posted by j.west at January 5, 2006 07:58 AMHe's baaaack!
He wants to hijack another thread, have it revolve around him. He even wants the post to change to suit him.
u. puke, You are as rovian as they come. I remember the bet also, I made a mistake yesterday. Never again!
Why should I repost it? You would just try to weasel out somehow. Just go away!!!
Posted by Goose1 at January 5, 2006 08:03 AMOff the top of my head...it was around the end of October, right before Libby got indicted, if that helps.
Posted by bbtb at January 5, 2006 08:04 AMLet it go, bbtb! His reputation preceeds him - and his lame comments.
Posted by pessimist at January 5, 2006 08:12 AMpessimist is right, don't bother, guys.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 5, 2006 08:23 AMGuys, guys, guys,
You can't argue with a Bush apologist. Or a Bush fundamentalist. There will be excuse after excuse made up for Jr.
The reality is that there are many jobs that are more dangerous that mining. Mining actually has a really good track record. Yes, accidents happen. As they do in every industry.
I heard on the radio coming in today that companies have been having tough times filling mining jobs recently. Jobs are paying $70-100K.
Posted by muckdog at January 5, 2006 08:58 AMI wish the government would stop protecting us from medical marijuana and Canadian drugs.....
Posted by Sharon at January 5, 2006 09:36 AMI heard on the radio coming in today that companies have been having tough times filling mining jobs recently. Jobs are paying $70-100K.
Bwhahahahahahahahaha!
Oh, come on, which radio programme was it? There's a reason you didn't mention it I'm sure.
Posted by idiosynchronic at January 5, 2006 09:46 AM"The reality is that there are many jobs that are more dangerous that mining." sez muckdog.
Such as? High-wire tightrope walking, bank auditing, that sort of thing?
Let's talk industrial, shall we? What industries have the sort of killing safety record that coal-mining has? I can only think of one other and that's deep-sea fishing. Open-cast quarrying is up there but coal and other deep mining (gold, frex) are the stone killers by far.
Go into a foundry with molten metal being slung around and you'll see well-lit spacious working conditions with ventilators and lighting, with guards on the machinery, safety rails, the workers protected from the dangers of their raw materials by distance and barriers.
Now go down a coal-mine, five hundred feet down into wet shifting rock, walk along a badly-lit tunnel a mile or more to the workface dodging coal truck trains that almost fill the tunnel (bigger tunnels are more difficult to keep from collapsing and they cost more to cut and support). Get to the work-face and find it's only six feet tall, lower than the roof in your bedroom because big seams of coal aren't around any more, they were cut fifty years ago and cutting rock to give the workers more headroom isn't economical. Ignore the puddles of water you're standing in; they're not major leaks from the faulted seams in front of you, they're just "normal". The smell is something else but the gas alarms aren't going off so you're safe for the moment unless the coal cutter finds a pocket or seam of methane in which case you start running for the shaft bottom and hope the tunnel behind you doesn't light up. The mine geologist reckons it's safe-ish but he's not down here forty hours a week.
You're there for an eight-hour shift of hard physical labour, I hope you brought sandwiches and a flask of water or coffee. Nowhere to wash your hands, not underground and you'd be filthy fifteen seconds later from the coal and rock dust in the air from the cutters anyway and you get used to the taste of powdered coal and rock in your mouth (and your lungs). There are showers at the pit-heads, won by the unions for you because the bosses reckoned you could get yourself clean at home on your own time, but you won't see the surface until you finish your shift. It's a great way to quit smoking, the coal business since you can't pop out of the office for a quick ciggy with your mates and bitch about the company's no-smoking policy.
Toilets? There's a pit in the corner, euphemistically called a "man-hole". It gets filled in once a week or thereabouts as the face advances and another one dug.
Anyone who decides to become a coal-miner these days, even for the big bucks (which only really cuts in when you rack up the overtime) is doing it for reasons other than cold logic. My father threw my brother out of the house when he joined the Coal Board and he was only doing it to become an apprentice electrician, he wouldn't be underground for more than one shift a week.
From figures I saw in the 70s in the British coal industry (much more safety-oriented than the US coal business) a face worker with a forty-year career had a 1 - 1.5% chance of dying in an accident at the pit.
If you want to measure the real cost of coal, look up the word "Aberfan" sometime.
Posted by Robert Sneddon at January 5, 2006 10:20 AMRobert, thanks, that was an amazing description.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 5, 2006 11:37 AM"Is it enough for Americans to only expect employment, even of the most dangerous sort?"
I don't know about expecting employment, but there are many jobs that are dangerous, jobs that most people wouldn't want. Smoke-jumping anyone?
I feel badly when anyone dies, whether they're working or not. Pilots dies when planes crash, cops are killed all the time. Is it fair? No.
Posted by at January 5, 2006 11:53 AMOoops, the above comment was from me. I forgot to put my name on it
Posted by avaroo at January 5, 2006 11:54 AMEarly reports, CO poisoning, the men were leaving notes to their families. Just going to sleep. Carbon monoxide poisoning happens after combustion, it's an asphyxiant.
avaroo, When violations are noted, ignored and people still die is that "fair"? Level the playing field a bit.
Posted by bbtb at January 5, 2006 12:20 PM"avaroo, When violations are noted, ignored and people still die is that "fair"?"
I believe I specifically said it's NOT fair when people die while they're working.
Posted by avaroo at January 5, 2006 12:25 PMIs it fair? No.
Could it be minimized? Yes.
Are corporations willing to put profit over safety? Yes.
Are the idiotarians willing to defend the corporations who don't know or care that they exist? Yes.
Is avaroo an idiotarian? Yes.
All those guys should have worked harder to better themselves so they wouldn't have had to take such a crappy job.
Pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps guys!
Everyone has an equal shot at success.
Posted by shorter rightwinger at January 5, 2006 12:37 PMSo you still want them to work and get the job done, right? That's the gist of your comment. You say it's not fair, but if that's what they want to do for employment then it's on them, right?
Stop the pandering. Make your point, or stay off the thread.
You support bu$h and his policies. If there are some dead miners, then what the fuck...or better yet if there are over 2100 dead soldiers for supporting his cabal, what the fuck, they were volunteers.
Every job has its risks, please, stop with the caring attitude...that you don't really have.
"So you still want them to work and get the job done, right?"
Me? Well, yes I guess I want people to work at whatever they want to work at, even if it's dangerous. Fire-fighting is dangerous, but is it ok for people to take jobs fighting fires? Sure.
"You say it's not fair, but if that's what they want to do for employment then it's on them, right?"
What's "on them"?
Posted by avaroo at January 5, 2006 12:52 PMI'm sure one of your local English teachers can explain it to you.
Posted by bbtb at January 5, 2006 01:00 PMAdmitting that you have no point?
Posted by avaroo at January 5, 2006 01:02 PMCarbon monoxide is not an asphyxiant. It combines preferentially in the bloodstream with red blood cells and prevents the uptake of oxygen from the lungs causing unconsciousness and eventually death. It's the reason canaries were used down mines as they collapsed a lot sooner than men did. Modern gas detectors are more sensitive than canaries; in the UK the last canaries were retired from coal mines in the mid-80s.
Posted by Robert Sneddon at January 5, 2006 01:11 PMCarbon monoxide is not an asphyxiant.
Huh?
Asphyxia:
A condition in which an extreme decrease in the amount of oxygen in the body accompanied by an increase of carbon dioxide leads to loss of consciousness or death.
Asphyxiant:
A substance, such as a toxic gas, or an event, such as drowning, that induces asphyxia.
Carbon monoxide is not the same as carbon dioxide. CO is a poison, in effect. You can die from quite small doses of CO in ordinary air because it stops oxygen uptake into the bloodstream. CO2 displaces the oxygen in the air and asphyxiates you by reducing the amount of oxygen you breathe into your lungs, which is asphyxia.
CO is also a combustible gas; it burns to CO2 in the presence of oxygen. It used to be made for distribution as town gas or producer gas when coal was incompletely burned to make coke. It also appears in mines usually along with methane and sometimes hydrogen, trapped in the coal seams and released when the coal is cut. Adequate ventilation gets rid of the trace amounts but sometimes cutting releases concentrated pockets of the gas, called firedamp in the old days. It's the reason no matches or cigarette lighters are allowed underground and why most coal-cutting machinery is hydraulically powered, not driven electrically to avoid the possibility of sparks.
Did I mention coal-mining was dangerous?
Posted by Robert Sneddon at January 5, 2006 04:42 PMRobert, why can't more coal mining work be done robotically?
Posted by avaroo at January 5, 2006 05:08 PMIt would seem that God's favorite is at it again. Pat Robertson has declared that Sharon's stroke is retribution for his giving away God's Land in Gaza. This maniac is so far out in space, he should be hanging around with L. Ron Hubbard. Fuck, I can't believe people listen to this idiot.
On the other hand, a few Americans actually voted for Bush. Forget about national security, we need a national psychiatric agency.
This is totally unrelated to previous posts, but since this is an open thread, here's my question:
What's the deal with the quotas on women in the new Afghani and Iraqui governments? You know it was put in at our insistence, but can you imagine the outcry if we tried here? OMG. Is it just a move so we can say "See, we gave women rights - look how many are having a say in the government - such progress!" while they get out-voted (since they're still a serious minority in the governing bodies) and women's rights get legally trampled in general?
That's what's on my mind. Oh, and "Go Longhorns!"
Posted by Kaleefornian at January 5, 2006 06:12 PMRobert, Your right, carbon monoxide acts as an asphyxiant, it's not technically an asphyxiant. Either way you suffocate to death. I do have some questions though; If mixed with other carbon based gases is it still only CO, or does its property change? Do miners encounter hydrogen sulfide also?
Kaleefornian, I would suspect it's only a token nod to apease the US. After were gone, it's back to hardcore theocratic rule of law. No women's rights.
Oh, and that was some game last night, though I wanted USC, Vince Young is a bigger version of Michael Vick. Great game.
Posted by bbtb at January 5, 2006 06:32 PM
Ok Robert. You can believe CO isn't an asphyxiant if you like.
But the US government and my physician wife disagree with you.
Posted by snark at January 5, 2006 07:57 PMJack Abramoff is needed in Iraq to illustrate how a true representative republic functions. If Al-Jazeera is broadcasting Fox, I understand the insurgents reluctance to embrace our culture. Did anyone see the "uncle Jaun" Williams anti-Dave Lettermen rant on O'Riley? What a shill for the right. So much for "fair and unbalanced".
Posted by TIKI AL at January 5, 2006 08:08 PMJuan Williams has made a career out of being every conservative's favorite liberal. I guess that makes the self proclaimed Democrat avaroo a Juan Williams wannabe, 'nuff said.
Posted by rlp at January 5, 2006 09:03 PMJuan Williams is a liberal?
Posted by at January 5, 2006 11:00 PMJuan Williams is what the conservatives (and the Straussian neo-conman radicals who claim to be conservatives) believe a liberal is.
Posted by pessimist at January 6, 2006 11:51 AMRobert, why can't more coal mining work be done robotically?
Answer: $$$
Posted by at January 6, 2006 11:55 AMThat was an enlightening and sincere post, Robert - THANKS!
Posted by old crone at January 6, 2006 04:33 PM