There are many minorities, myself included, who believe that getting a handout from whitey isn't required. We can do quite well without condescension.

Damn, you are a pessimist.

Actually, it's the exact opposite, I'm an optimist. It's the pessimists who believe that minorities can't make it without help from the majority. Pessimists and racists.

Damn, I have no conscience or regrets when it comes to taking advantage of a system that is broken! Fix the fucking system, give real opportunity and real equality to the disabled (among others) in the workforce or shut your pie hole. But if your not going to give me a job for at least what I was making 2 years ago, 38k, then why should I bother to work for $10.00 an hour. That is what I'm making now off my VA stipend! My qualifications haven't gone down, just my desirability as an applicant (age, health, et al)!
I'm doing what is best for my family, not as much money, but I'm home for my kid. All you conservatives can call me what you want but I challenge you to fix the system first before you start to talk shit!
By the way, that is from a 1/2 whitey, 1/2 spick! Or, as I was called in school as a kid, "hey, 50-50 bar"!

It's a wonder that you don't already have a GREAT job, what with your attitude and all. I can't imagine why any employer wouldn't find you to be a prize.

...getting a handout from whitey...

From the guy who's calling people racist.

Nice.

Huh. I though the post was about civil rights, not welfare. Oh, well, Clinton already handled that welfare reform thingy so not so much to give in hand outs anyway.

One thing about someone like Kirsanow , it'll keep the civil rights workers employed for many years to come.

"One thing about someone like Kirsanow , it'll keep the civil rights workers employed for many years to come."

and surely that's the most important thing...

"handout from whitey"?

So you're saying whitey is a "have" but the "have nots" shouldn't expect any help?

Is that what you're saying? Or are the "haves" and "have nots" equally equal?

I'm saying whites are not somehow superior to non-whites in that non-whites can't succeed without a handout.
It's condescending to say non-whites can't succeed without help from whitey

It's condescending to say non-whites can't succeed without help from whitey

And who exactly is saying non-whites can't succeed without a handout from whitey?

Excuse me but are you a nigga? Whitey wants to know.

affirmative action says non-whites can't succeed without that handout.

Boy, are we touchy tonight. Avaroo, no one ever said that, but I suspect you believe that.

don't know much about the Kirsanow issue, do you? maybe another thread would be a better fit for you.

That's bullshit.

What Affirmative Action says is that we need to take corrective action to repair inequalities that have developed over the course of the nations history do to the historical domination of whites over minorities in this country. Yes, it's a helping hand. It's a helping hand to give a generation or two a hand up. To broaden the foundation of a flourishing minority presence in the middle and upper segments of our society. Sure, it's a handout to those who recieve it. But their children and their children will then not have to fight the barriers that existed before. It's no different than the unnatural advantage that whites had because of the oppression of minorities. You think families like the Bushes, the Rockefellers, the Vanderbilts and the Kennedys didn't get what amounted to handouts from the system? Sure minorities can succeed without help. But a lot more of them can succeed in a much briefer time period if we do just a little to help.

I don't know if your last comment was for me or not, but if it was let me suggest "that maybe another Blog would be better fit for you."

No. What Affirmative Action says is that some people need help to be "equal" to others. Well, Idon't and I don't know any minorities who do. I'll run circles around you without any stinking handout.

"Sure, it's a handout to those who recieve it. But their children and their children will then not have to fight the barriers that existed before."

No, they just have to fight the stigma that comes from being seen as needing your largesse.

"Sure minorities can succeed without help. But a lot more of them can succeed in a much briefer time period if we do just a little to help."

That's incredibly condescending.

I don't know if your last comment was for me or not, but if it was let me suggest "that maybe another Planet would be better fit for you."

"If there's another terror attack on American soil, you can forget about civil rights. That's according to Peter Kirsanow, who will testify to Samuel Alito's civil rights credent"

Whay do the terrorists win? Oh, they attacked twice. Well. that was easy. By By civil rights.

Boy, that sure made sense. You sure showed me.

Mparker, that is exactly what the plan is. Another attack = suspension of civil rights.

This much we know, before GWB leaves office, there will be another attack. We just don't know when or where.

That's incredibly condescending.

Oh get over it. Sure, everykid in the innercity can succeed. One two three. Then why don't they? Why do we have generation after generation living in poverty? Do they like to live that way? Surely not.

If you want to believe there's some stigma attached to AA then fine. My wife benefitted from Affirmative Action. She recieved dedicated scholarships to attend an ivy league university. She was admitted to an ivy league medical college largely because of her academic achievement but also as one of a very few black candidates. She had school loans repaid through programs for minority physicians. As part of that deal she pledged to stay in the community and work to help show kids in underserved minority communities that they can do it. That they don't need to remain in poverty. Did people give her a break once she got into these programs? No. But she did get a chance that she might not have otherwise got because her parents were dirt poor and non-english speaking. My wife speaks 4 languages now. SHe is a double post-graduate degree holder who works with former Surgeon Generals amongst others. You can ask her if she feels any stigma. She's back in the underserved communities helping the next generation. So whitey doesn't have to.

Take your condescending crap and the chip on your shoulder and shove it up your ass.

"Sure, everykid in the innercity can succeed."

All innercity kids are black, are they?

"One two three. Then why don't they?"

Why don't all white kids succeed?

"Why do we have generation after generation living in poverty?"

Why there must be something fundamentally inferior about them, no? Something you can fix with some money.

Of course there's a stigma attached to AA.

Support the Troops. It's an all volunteer army. We don't do slavery in this country.

Court backs army service extension

It's legal to stop-loss 'em til they crack. And then sometimes they still have to fight for health care. Mental health or even brain injuries ">Losing their minds, about TBI

Losing their minds

And I'm a whitey raised in the ghetto/inner city and I got help....a handout you might call it

All innercity kids are black, are they?

Ok so I see you're only interested in making me out to be a racist so I will end this now.

Obviously you have no interest in an honest discussion.

Good luck to you.

yeah, you got help because you're white. THAT'S believable

All of Bush's incompetent friends got jobs due to.....well gee, I'm not sure why....so I don't see why others shouldn't get help. Why are you thinking only black and white?

You're the one who characterized innercity kids as black, muck. Don't think you can lay that on me.

Shaon's right...where's the affirmative action for asians? After all, they were discriminated against when they first came to this country.

oh, and your wife, muck, do you think her white colleagues think she got where she is because she's smart? Think about it.

You've got problems. You don't know my wife. Why would you even make such a suggestion?

My point was they have quotas and stuff for poor whites too, anon. Oh and I'm female. So I guess I really shouldn't have gotten any help, is that your point? Only those who have rich daddyies and are congressman's sons should be treated to any of the largesse to go around? And then they can become president and be idolized by brainless fools. Yeah, I get your point.

Couple things got me here (although lots seems to be getting me today.)

First of all, Civil Rights have been slipping away bit by bit for the last 5 years. It will only get worse.

Second, will someone please inform Feingold of all of this - fax it to him. He'll make sure the rest of the Senate hears about it.

Third, I fear that the next attack will come as the poll numbers continue to plummit and the investigation into the NSA spying escalates.

Fourth, women STILL earn only 77 cents on the dollar of their male counterparts. Equal pay for equal work, my ass.

Fifth, women still do not have the ability to completely control their own bodies, even with Roe, it is still limited. Most of the poverty in this country is women, most single mothers. Regardless of all of the massive progress that we have made, family duties (bbtb, you excluded and others I am sure,) fall on women. Even those who earn more money, work more hours, still inherently assume roles of running households. I would like to see some affirmative action in the homes of this Nation.

(Sorry, I am in a pissy mood.)

oh, and your wife, muck, do you think her white colleagues think she got where she is because she's smart? Think about it.

There are a lot of white men who I have worked with over the years who I thought got their jobs because they were, well, white men. Because they were also lazy, ignorant, slackers, just overall poor employees.

If a minorty in a job, such as muckcat's wife, is intelligent, competent and dedicated to her work, I would never think for one second that she got that job because of her race. If she was lazy, ignorant and a slacker, just like the white men who fit those criteria, I would think she got the job because of her race.

Besides, who cares what your colleagues think about how you got your job? Do a good job and it won't matter.

"My point was they have quotas and stuff for poor whites too, anon."

quotas for whites? Let's see some evidence of that?

You brought your wife into it, muck. Unbelievable as it is, to use her, as an example of what you were trying to prove.

Sure ann, it's totally believeable that no whites see affirmative action as favoring one race over another. Which is exactly what it is.

"Besides, who cares what your colleagues think about how you got your job?"

spoken as only someone who has never had suspiscion surround them that somehow they got something solely because of the color of their skin, not because they worked hard and deserved it, can.

Sure ann, it's totally believeable that no whites see affirmative action as favoring one race over another. Which is exactly what it is.

Oh, my, putting words into my post for me, roo? Of course, I never said that. The bigots will always think that minorities got their jobs because they're minorities.

"oh, and your wife, muck, do you think her white colleagues think she got where she is because she's smart? Think about it."

Now I am pissed. What bullshit. I know of no one who believes that just because someone received help and has made it, it must be because they were handed the accomplishment or success. You are one twisted person to believe that.

What is the hell is wrong with helping anyone. My Niece got help through Pellet Grants, etc., for college, but she had to maintain a certain criteria to keep her grant money. No one said "here's some money, but don't worry, you don't have to accomplish anything for it."

[buncha contradictory statements]Posted by avaroo at January 12, 2006 09:47 PM
*****
You know it's great to say "I don't need any special considerations on hiring quotas, cause I can make it just fine on my own merits." until you experience years and years of people who don't recognize your merits, or don't give you an opportunity to prove how skilled you are, because you're not the white guy.

spoken as only someone who has never had suspiscion surround them that somehow they got something solely because of the color of their skin, not because they worked hard and deserved it, can.

You need some serious therapy to work that chip off your shoulder.

"The bigots will always think that minorities got their jobs because they're minorities."

A lot of non-bigots will think that too. If someone got something solely because of their skin color, that's wrong.

"Now I am pissed."

how terribly disturbing.

"I know of no one who believes that just because someone received help and has made it, it must be because they were handed the accomplishment or success."

You wouldn't admit it if you did. There's no way that you don't know someone who thinks AA is wrong.

"What is the hell is wrong with helping anyone."

If you're doing it solely based on skin color, it's wrong.

"My Niece got help through Pellet Grants, etc., for college, but she had to maintain a certain criteria to keep her grant money."

Pell grants aren't race based.

Avaroo, I don't know what your issues are, although I am beginning to understand. Perhaps you need to see someone about your hostility and anger towards others groups of people.

Except now, Anjha, you get the opportunity to prove how skilled you are BEFORE the white guy does. Cause if you don't get it first, you know, he'll probably do better than you.

The avaroo bot is on overload. What a lovely pile of spew it has rendered this evening trying to pursuade us the it is one of us (a Democrat) yet believes that everything we believe is incorrect. Yeah, right, sure.

I'm off to Sudoku. Much more interesting that arguing with a conservative placed bot.

"The avaroo bot is on overload. What a lovely pile of spew it has rendered this evening trying to pursuade us the it is one of us"

I'm not one of you. I am a democrat.

"yet believes that everything we believe is incorrect."

because all good dems think alike....

"You wouldn't admit it if you did. There's no way that you don't know someone who thinks AA is wrong."

Sorry, but you are incorrect. No one I know, including my 84 year old Mother, thinks AA is wrong.

That's just not credible.

To end this night, I will leave you with a laugh. Just now on ABC, they just played a tape of Bush speaking to a group of people. He was talking about all the reforms he had gotten passed this year, including "ass-bestos." What a dork.

Oh, I see, you are the one to decide what is credible and what is not when someone says something. Talk about arrogance.

It's not credible that you don't know a single person who thinks that all races should be treated equally.

Believe what you want Avaroo. I really don't care.

Obviously you do.

No, you are incorrect. I don't care what you think.

I have minority friends, and not one of them feel as you do. However, they are secure within themselves, so they wouldn't feel or believe the way you do.

Obviously you do.

"I have minority friends"

why of course you do.

Race based law is wrong. Period. No matter which race is favored.

I caught a TV news clip tonight about an issue that resurfaces every few years. There has evidently been another study conducted that reaffirms previous findings. When people make business contacts via phone, they are more likely to experience discrimination if they "sound" like they are an individual of an ethnic minority population.

This type of evidence indicates to me that the case for affirmative action has merit.

This info is only today's example. For more, research the last few hundred years of U. S. History. Don't stop at the textbooks.

I don't believe that affirmative action is synonomous with "handouts". Perhaps one problem is that we're speaking with different lingo.

Your right. I don't have minority friends. In fact, I hate minorities and so does my family and friends. I believe that Affirmative Action is the root of all evil, and those poor white guys have suffered because of unqualified minorities like you getting their jobs. You have now gotten confirmation on what you believe. Are you happy now? As I said, believe what you want. In my world it does not make one bit of difference.

I don't believe that affirmative action is synonomous with "handouts".

OTF, and neither do I, but evidently Avaroo does.

Except now, Anjha, you get the opportunity to prove how skilled you are BEFORE the white guy does. Cause if you don't get it first, you know, he'll probably do better than you.

Posted by avaroo at January 12, 2006 10:00 PM
**********

FUCK YOU!

You have no idea what kind of discrimination that I have been through as a result of not having been born with a penis.

I worked in a male dominated industry for a number of years. I experienced discrimination at its worst.

Go to hell avaroo.

You know not what you speak of.

pessimist: Then they found this ignorant colored soldier, and ORDERED him to TELL a TALE OUT HIS ASS of W.M.D. Put him at the big round table at the U.N., put a pointer in his hand, clusters on his shoulders, and made him spew lies in front of all them foreigners. "Do you know how much damage one ignorant Negro can do?" We will be finding out for years to come.

Affirmative action takes for granted that healthy, white, Christian men can ,in fact, succeed even on a level playing field. Healthy, white Christian men have doubts.

Look at all these racist liberals, getting all worked up that a non-white person like avaroo is actually questioning the world order that liberals deem appropriate.

No wonder you liberals can't derail Alito.

Pretty soon, as liberal racists find out that Asians ALREADY earn more money than whites in America, see all their racism come out of the closet in full force.

"My Niece got help through Pellet Grants, etc., for college, but she had to maintain a certain criteria to keep her grant money."

Pell grants aren't race based.

Avaroo, You missed my point.

Avaroo, don't worry. Sammy Alito will take care of that horrible AA law. Then you won't feel discriminated against.

According to the ooga booga morons and knee jerk fundamentalists on this board, all would be great if we could just turn the clock back to the fifties.

It amazes me that all is good when the right totes the token black from the backroom to speak on their behalf, then they loudly proclaim that we should all take note that they have our best interests in mind.

Just tell me how many black repbublicans have positions of leadership and are 1) taken seriously by all, and 2) not propped up when they are needed to show the right as all inclusive?

Blacks in the repub party are all invited to the big republican dinner party; however, they all have to eat in the kitchen.

What gets me is that they all forget what the struggle was about.

al gore will give a speech on monday to address the constitutional crisis this country faces..which began with the supreme courts decision against him...i believe al gore is the one person in this country which can unite the mojority of people in this country against the forces of evil that are in command..he is a good and decent man and has earned the right ..i hope the hell that he runs...pay attention to what he says monday..it is the truth speaking

Avaroo, I take it your against legacies too? There is an example of AA for whites.

Grtts rc pmpng/btng fr Mrtyr Lthr Kng dy wll nflm th prptlly gttd bt tnds mr t ncrs th h-hm fctr fr th rst.

more racism from bend over asshole...

Sorry. I thought perhaps it would be possible to engage with Avaroo in a rational give and take but I was mistaken. He seems only interested in telling whitey that whitey is keeping him down regardless of what whitey does or does not do. An incredible amount of hostility. Is it ok if I mention his hostility? Or is that being condescending? And I'm sorry I stepped out of line and suggested that poor inner city black kids existed and that many of them were cut off from the means of escaping poverty. Not sure what I was thinking.

I'd just like to say one additional thing. My wife did not recieve anything that she did not deserve to recieve. What Affirmative Action, in whatever specific capacity the assistance she got can be called Affirmative Action, that she recieved was simply this. Someone came looking for her. They didn't come looking for the first poor black child of immigrants that they could find to stick in a classroom to add some brown to the decor. They came looking for poor black children with the foundation necessary to succeed but without the economic means or the access to the opportunities necessary to get one onto a path out of the poverty cycle. My wife is a brilliantly intelligent woman. Thanks largely to her parents who made sure she they taught her how to learn. They gave her the foundation to succeed. No one who knows her would ever entertain the thought that she is where she is solely because of her skin color. There was an outreach. To her. From a system that is often inaccessable to people of her background. She was given an opportunity to prove that she deserved to be there and she did. As I said earlier, she now works back in her childhood community providing basic healthcare and education to kids like her. Helping them by her example so that they know that they can succeed in the world. She's giving these kids, many from broken or abusive homes the foundation that they may not be getting at home. Some seem to think that that is not a good thing. I disagree.

"In fact, I hate minorities and so does my family and friends."

More likely you jusy condescend to them. Cause we really cannot compete with you unless we get a boost. Right?

"believe what you want. In my world it does not make one bit of difference."

I never thought for a moment that what any non-white person believes would matter to you in the least.

"He seems only interested in telling whitey that whitey is keeping him down regardless of what whitey does or does not do."

My point is precsiely the opposite.

"And I'm sorry I stepped out of line and suggested that poor inner city black kids existed and that many of them were cut off from the means of escaping poverty."

Wha you should be sorry about is assuming that every kid in the inner city is black. And that every white kid automatically succeeds simply by virtue of being white.

"My wife did not recieve anything that she did not deserve to recieve."

If she got something based solely on her race, then she did indeed get something she didn't deserve. After all, being non-white isn't an accomplishment, nor does it make one automtically in need. She didn't do anything to become non-white and shouldn't be preferred simply because she is.

"What Affirmative Action, in whatever specific capacity the assistance she got can be called Affirmative Action, that she recieved was simply this. Someone came looking for her."

Because of her race. That's wrong. No matter what race is the preferred one of the moment. If you think it's ok for non-whites to be given priority for anything simply because they're not white, then you cannot complain if anyone sets up a preference program to favor whites simply because they are white. Yet something tells me you would.

"They didn't come looking for the first poor black child of immigrants that they could find to stick in a classroom to add some brown to the decor."

That's likely exactly what happened.

"They came looking for poor black children with the foundation necessary to succeed but without the economic means or the access to the opportunities necessary to get one onto a path out of the poverty cycle."

an affirmative acion says that there are no white peope in the same circumstances, having the foundation to succeed but not the economic means or the access to get on the path out of the poverty cycle. Do you believe that's true?

"My wife is a brilliantly intelligent woman. Thanks largely to her parents who made sure she they taught her how to learn. They gave her the foundation to succeed."

Then she shouldn't have needed to be given priority over white people with the exact same background.

"No one who knows her would ever entertain the thought that she is where she is solely because of her skin color."

You're mistaken if you think many people don't think exactly this. The problem is that no one will ever know if anyone receiving preference through affirmative action would be where they are now without it. Causing a stigma for people who receive preferences through AA.

"There was an outreach. To her. From a system that is often inaccessable to people of her background."

Yor assuming that this system is automatically accessible to everyone who is white.

"She was given an opportunity to prove that she deserved to be there and she did."

She was given the opportunity because of skin color. And that is wrong.

Hey muckcat, your wife's story sounds a bit like mine, at least as far as being poor and getting help, and succeeding with that help because of hard work and intelligence. I'm also white. But I worked in the auto industry as the only female in my department besides the admin asst ("secretary"). During my first job though, when I was requested to move to the plant because of my good work, I heard on the grapevine that someone (a white male) said "they had to fill their quota" which was bullshit, he was just pissed he hadn't been asked (but he didn't have a bachelors and I did but I guess he thought he was deserving cuz he was a white male?). With white male attitude like that, it doesn't matter WHY a person of color or a female is "chosen" for something good, there will always be those who make cracks. Well, I'm out of that life/creativity-sucking environment, and after a few years of training, I'll be able to help people who have speech/language problems. And I find it very interesting that most of the students in my classes are female.

I find the argument that someone getting help because of their color is SO WRONG really ignorant. Guess that person hasn't ever noticed all the doors open to white people that are shut to others. How ignorant is that?

Wha you should be sorry about is assuming that every kid in the inner city is black. And that every white kid automatically succeeds simply by virtue of being white.

I never said that nor do I assume that.

an affirmative acion says that there are no white peope in the same circumstances, having the foundation to succeed but not the economic means or the access to get on the path out of the poverty cycle. Do you believe that's true?

Does it really? Please explain to me where Affirmative Action says that. I certainly don't believe that. What I do believe is that there are a disproportionate percentage of blacks who are cut off from the opportunites available. I never said anything about every white kid succeeding. In fact I never said anything about every black kid succeeding. I indicated that poor innercity kids had less of a chance at succeeding and you took that to mean that I thought they were inferior. When in fact what I believe is that this country has prevented them from succeeding when they could just as easily succeed as any white kid. No one believe that every kid, black, white, asian, hispanic is going to succeed. What affirmative action tries to do is decrease the disparity between the percentage of those from different groups who do succeed by compensating for historical inequalities and discrimination. I don't know why I'm bothering to continue to give you my pespective as you clearly are not interested in the diversity of opinion you constantly wrongly criticize others for stiffling.

Yor assuming that this system is automatically accessible to everyone who is white.

Again, I make no such assumption. And I have expressed no opinion as to the fairness of Affirmative Action to white people.

"I find the argument that someone getting help because of their color is SO WRONG really ignorant."

If you mean that you don't believe people get help because of their skin color, then you don't understand affirmative action.

If you meant that you believe the the view that getting help because of skin color is wrong is an ignorant view, then you're admitting to racism.

"I never said that nor do I assume that."

So you'd be FOR affirmative action for innercity kids based solely on their being white? Action that wouldn't be open to black kids?

"Does it really?"

yes, it does. Do you not KNOW what Affirmative Action is?

"What I do believe is that there are a disproportionate percentage of blacks who are cut off from the opportunites available."

why do you believe that?

"I never said anything about every white kid succeeding."

Unless you think there should be AA programs open strictly to white kids as there are such programs open strictly to minority kids, then you do actually think the white kids don't need it to succeed but minority kids do.

"I indicated that poor innercity kids had less of a chance at succeeding and you took that to mean that I thought they were inferior."

Nope, I took it the way you meant it, that innercity kids are black and therefore worthy of preference.

"When in fact what I believe is that this country has prevented them from succeeding when they could just as easily succeed as any white kid."

Only if they get a hand up though, right?

"What affirmative action tries to do is decrease the disparity between the percentage of those from different groups who do succeed by compensating for historical inequalities and discrimination."

IOW, it gives preference to non-whites. Which is just as wrong as giving preference to whites.

"I don't know why I'm bothering to continue to give you my pespective"

I suspect that you're uncomfortable with a minority expressing the view that race based preferences are wrong.

"And I have expressed no opinion as to the fairness of Affirmative Action to white people."

Then clear that up now. Is a program mandating the preferecne of a person based solely on skin color ever acceptable?

I suspect that you're uncomfortable with a minority expressing the view that race based preferences are wrong.

That's always the easy answer isn't it? Whitey is uncomfortable. I'm keeping you down again right? Being condscending again?

Then clear that up now. Is a program mandating the preferecne of a person based solely on skin color ever acceptable?

Solely on skin color. No. Do I believe that race should be a factor that is legitimately considered in this imperfect society as a means of developing a more racially diverse body of qualified people at at all socioeconomic levels of our society. Yes.

an affirmative acion says that there are no white peope in the same circumstances

My response;

I never said that nor do I assume that.

To which you responded;

So you'd be FOR affirmative action for innercity kids based solely on their being white? Action that wouldn't be open to black kids?

What your response has to do with Affirmative Action saying that there are no white kids in need I don't know. And how you rationalized my response to mean that I either do not believe there are white kids cut off from opportunites or that I would support AA for whites only.

You seem only interested in making me out to be bad in some way. Not in exchanging ideas. I have no interest in that. Good day.

Got my quotes a bit mixed up there but you get the idea. Sorry, I have no interest in debating this further with you. Best of luck to you.

See, here's a classic example of things that are open for debate versus things that are not.

Affirmative action: Open for debate.

Congress' Constitutionally articulated powers: Not open for debate.

Understand the difference, trolls? Apparently your aristocratic "president" does not.

"That's always the easy answer isn't it? Whitey is uncomfortable."

You seem to be.

"I'm keeping you down again right?"

No. But you don't mind stigmatizing non whites.

"Solely on skin color. No."

Then you're against affirmative action. Because that's what it is, preference based on skin color (or gender, but I suspect you'd be forced to admit that no one should be given preferences based solely on gender).

"Do I believe that race should be a factor that is legitimately considered in this imperfect society as a means of developing a more racially diverse body of qualified people at at all socioeconomic levels of our society. Yes."

That's not what AA is.

You did not answer this question.

So you'd be FOR affirmative action for innercity kids based solely on their being white? Action that wouldn't be open to black kids?

Then you're against affirmative action. Because that's what it is, preference based on skin color (or gender, but I suspect you'd be forced to admit that no one should be given preferences based solely on gender).

You said based solely on skin color. Please give me some examples where an unqualified black or other minority person was given preference over a qualified white male simply because the minority was a minority. Discounting all other qualifications for the job/educational opportunity.

Again, I have no problem with say a university considering an applicants gender as a factor in deciding who will make up the student body. Should it be the only, or primary factor. No.

Please cite me some examples where a person with no qualifications was hired for a job or admitted to a school over a person who had superior qualifications based solely on their skin color.

You did not answer this question.

So you'd be FOR affirmative action for innercity kids based solely on their being white? Action that wouldn't be open to black kids?

Why would I be FOR that? I've explained my support of AA for minorites. You simply don't care for it. As is your right. How much better shall I explain. I believe that this country can benefit on the whole from a limited application of preferences based in part on race/gender to help level an historically out of kilter playing field.

"You said based solely on skin color."

That's what affirmative action IS. Preference based on skin color.

"Again, I have no problem with say a university considering an applicants gender as a factor in deciding who will make up the student body."

So you'd have no problem with a university setting a quota of, say, 75% male for its student body?

"Please cite me some examples where a person with no qualifications was hired for a job or admitted to a school over a person who had superior qualifications based solely on their skin color."

This is intellectually dishonest of you.

"Why would I be FOR that?"

because you're for minorities getting affirmative action based on their being minorities. Or you say you are. Once you're pinned down with a quaestion that speaks directly to AA, you get flustered.

"I've explained my support of AA for minorites."

Your position that minorities should get preference is no more legitimate than someone else's position that whites should get preferences.

"You simply don't care for it."

I'm not big on racism on matter what color the person is.

You seem to be.

LOL! Yep that's me. Uncomfortable dealing with minorities. No discomfort. Just no desire to deal with someone who has no interest in another view point. Obviously you don't believe I have any right to discuss things like AA because I'm whitey. That's fine with me. That is why I will stop trying to discuss it with you.

No. But you don't mind stigmatizing non whites.

It's the first thing I try and do each morning after getting out of bed! I look at my wife and tell her she's only where she is because of the handout that whitey gave her. To which she usually has a good laugh.

"Obviously you don't believe I have any right to discuss things like AA because I'm whitey."

And what tipped you off to my belief that you have no right to discuss AA? The fact that I'm talking to you about it?

"I look at my wife and tell her she's only where she is because of the handout that whitey gave her. "

You'll actually never know whether this is true or not, will you?

The best way to fight race based preferences is to refuse to divulge one's race when asked. Don't put it on applications of any kind, including college. Don't answer it on surveys or on the information section of school tests. Or alternatively, give the wrong answer. Put down that you're black when applying to USC and show up Asian or white.

That's what affirmative action IS. Preference based on skin color.

Solely on skin color? You're sure.

So you'd have no problem with a university setting a quota of, say, 75% male for its student body?

Did I mention support for quotas? Are there universities that have such quotas? I believe I expressed support for gender being considered in university admissions.

This is intellectually dishonest of you.

Why? You seem to be suggesting that AA is resulting in unqualified people getting jobs and school admission at the expense of qualified people. I asked for some examples.

because you're for minorities getting affirmative action based on their being minorities. Or you say you are. Once you're pinned down with a quaestion that speaks directly to AA, you get flustered.

Flustered? I have had no problem admitting that I support AA. Again, please find me some instances of unqualified people benefitting from AA at the expense of qualified white people.

Your position that minorities should get preference is no more legitimate than someone else's position that whites should get preferences.

I never said it was. It's just that. My opinion.

I'm not big on racism on matter what color the person is.

Comforting.

"Solely on skin color? You're sure."

or as I said, on gender, also not something one is responsible for.
If you can't legitmately say that it's ok to favor whites or women, then you can't make the case that it's ok for other groups.

"Did I mention support for quotas?"

yes - you said universities could consider gender in forming their student body. They have to have a number goal in order to do this, or everyone accepted would be female.

"Why? You seem to be suggesting that AA is resulting in unqualified people getting jobs and school admission at the expense of qualified people."

Nope, never said that. I said that AA results in minorities getting jobs and school admission at the expense of non-minorities. And that's just as reprehensible as non-minorities getting jobs and admission at the expense of minorities.

I said above....If you can't legitmately say that it's ok to favor whites or women, then you can't make the case that it's ok for other groups. That should read .......If you can't legitimately say that it's ok to favor whites or MEN.........

And what tipped you off to my belief that you have no right to discuss AA? The fact that I'm talking to you about it?

No the fact that you accuse me of willingly stigmatizing minorities. My support of AA defacto means that I am stigmatizing minorities. So obviously you feel I have no right to my opinion on the subject because it only does you harm. You have practically said as much in your responses.

You'll actually never know whether this is true or not, will you?

Ain't it beautiful. And no one cares. And no one questions it.

The best way to fight race based preferences is to refuse to divulge one's race when asked. Don't put it on applications of any kind, including college. Don't answer it on surveys or on the information section of school tests. Or alternatively, give the wrong answer. Put down that you're black when applying to USC and show up Asian or white.

Maybe we should just blind the entire world. That'll solve the problem. Right?

"No the fact that you accuse me of willingly stigmatizing minorities."

But you ARE doing that.

"My support of AA defacto means that I am stigmatizing minorities."

yes

"So obviously you feel I have no right to my opinion on the subject"

no

"Ain't it beautiful. And no one cares. And no one questions it."

Sure people care and question it. Just as people questioned it when white men got ahead at the expense of everyone else.

"Maybe we should just blind the entire world."

Are you saying that you make up your mind about people based on skin color?

AA does not of course consider all minorities equals. Some are MORE equal than others. Asians are sometimes discriminated against in college acceptance. Do not fill out the race section of your application. Or fill it out incorrectly.

Nope, never said that. I said that AA results in minorities getting jobs and school admission at the expense of non-minorities.

And I explained my reasons for supporting that. So your only problem with AA is that an equally qualified minority gets a chance while the qualified white person has to look elsewhere?

or as I said, on gender, also not something one is responsible for.
If you can't legitmately say that it's ok to favor whites or women, then you can't make the case that it's ok for other groups.

On a level playing field. No. That case can not be made. Our fundimental disagreement seems to be on the nature of the playing field and whether it hampers the ability of minorities to compete freely.

Are you saying that you make up your mind about people based on skin color?

Are you saying that no one does?

You made up your mind about my wife based solely on her skin color. You immediately assumed that her job performance would make it apparent that she benefitted from AA to her colleagues when you have no basis whatsoever to assume that. You have a bias against her and you've never even met her.

"And I explained my reasons for supporting that. "

Then you cannot legitimately object when whites receive preferences.

"So your only problem with AA is that an equally qualified minority gets a chance while the qualified white person has to look elsewhere?"

The problem with AA is that it's based on race. No one is more or less deserving because of their race.

"On a level playing field."

no such thing - anywhere

"Our fundimental disagreement seems to be on the nature of the playing field and whether it hampers the ability of minorities to compete freely. "

Our fundamental disagreement is on whether or not it's ok to give preferences to ANY race over others. I say no. You say it depends on the race. In your case, you favor it for blacks, some people favor it for whites. I can't imagine why you think it's ok to be on the same coin as the KKK, just the flip side of it.

"Are you saying that no one does?"

you clearly do

"You made up your mind about my wife based solely on her skin color."

I have no opinion on your wife. I couldn't possibly know whether or not she'd be where she is without preferences. And neither can you. Or anyone else.

"You immediately assumed that her job performance would make it apparent that she benefitted from AA to her colleagues"

Where did I do that?

"You have a bias against her and you've never even met her."

I have no opinion on her. Your wife isn't the issue. You used her as an example.

"Pretty soon, as liberal racists find out that Asians ALREADY earn more money than whites in America, see all their racism come out of the closet in full force."

That's already happening. In some California high schools, white parents are moving their kids to private schools because they can't compete with the asian kids in public schools. Some of CA's public high schools are overwhelmingly asian.

you clearly do

Really. Howso? You have an example of me making up my mind about someone based on skin color? I'd like you to point it out to me.

Where did I do that?.

Here;

oh, and your wife, muck, do you think her white colleagues think she got where she is because she's smart? Think about it.

That was unsigned. But I don't see why it would have been anyone but you. Do you deny that that is your comment? If it was your comment it can only mean that you assumed my wifes job performance would lead white people to judge her as an unworthy recipient of a handout.

"Really. Howso?"

by being for affirmative action

"That was unsigned. But I don't see why it would have been anyone but you."

It was me. Now point out in there where I mention, refer to, or in any way say anything about her job performance?

Here it is again, for reference......oh, and your wife, muck, do you think her white colleagues think she got where she is because she's smart? Think about it.

In fact, job performance is specifically EXCLUDED from consideration when someone gets a preference based on race.

What reason would her colleagues have to think she got the job for anything other than being smart? Obviously you would think they have some overt reason to doubt it? What would that be? Oh! Because she's black. So obviously she can't be good at her job. She just got it because she's black.

In fact, job performance is specifically EXCLUDED from consideration when someone gets a preference based on race.

Yet you can't identify an instance where someone unqualified got a job because of AA.

"What reason would her colleagues have to think she got the job for anything other than being smart?"

When you're a recipient of AA, everything you do is viewed through the lens of your getting it. No way around that.

"Yet you can't identify an instance where someone unqualified got a job because of AA."

because qualifications have nothing to do with it. it's about race. or gender.

My word!

It's interesting that avaroo's comments dove-tail so well with many social theories about economic pressure and prejudice. Everything he spews yells, "I am not doing well economically, and it is the fault of someone else." Then he points his finger at an outgroup and yells, "It's them! They are the reason I can't make it!"

Although you claim otherwise, avaroo. You are the biggest racist on this blog. Stunning!

by being for affirmative action

I have nothing to do with AA. I'm anti-smoking. That doesn't mean I judge people because they smoke or not. I have no problem with homosexuality. That doesn't mean I think less of heterosexuals.

Again, What you said was that I clearly make up my mind about people based on their skin color. Please give me an example of someone I have judged based on their skin color. I gave you one where you did it.

"I am not doing well economically, and it is the fault of someone else."

That would be AA's defense. And muck's defense ofAA. It's exactly the opposite of my view.

"It's them! They are the reason I can't make it!"

same here

When you're a recipient of AA, everything you do is viewed through the lens of your getting it. No way around that.

What do her colleagues know about her involvement with any kind of AA? They don't tatoo it on her forehead.

because qualifications have nothing to do with it. it's about race. or gender.

So you do believe that unqualified people benefit at the expense of whites. But you just denied that before.

"I have nothing to do with AA."

I didn't say you did. I said you were for it.

"Again, What you said was that I clearly make up my mind about people based on their skin color."

anyone who is for AA has to do so. You cannot be for it otherwise.

"I gave you one where you did it."

no, you did not.

"What do her colleagues know about her involvement with any kind of AA?"

It isn't about her. For anyone, escaping the stigma of AA is not possible. The fact is, no one can ever know if any recipient would be where they are without AA.

"So you do believe that unqualified people benefit at the expense of whites."

It's not about qualifications, it's about race.

It isn't about her. For anyone, escaping the stigma of AA is not possible. The fact is, no one can ever know if any recipient would be where they are without AA.

You need to relax a bit. Life is full of unknowns about anyone. What difference does it make what color you are. Who cares what other people think. Do you know why every white person got the job they did? None of them got their positions because of a discriminatory preference? College legecy anyone? Old boy network? Do you think all white people waste their time stewing about howcome someone got the job they have. Fuck them. Just do your fucking job and no one gives a shit.

The more I read your comment the more I realize how much hatred and contempt you seem to have for white people.

"What difference does it make what color you are."

None to me. It's the ONLY thing that matters to affirmative action.

"None of them got their positions because of a discriminatory preference?"

and that's ok with you?

"College legecy anyone? Old boy network?"

all ok with you?

"Just do your fucking job and no one gives a shit."

spoken like only someone who's never been stigmatized by AA can

"The more I read your comment the more I realize how much hatred and contempt you seem to have for white people."

There are of course minorities who support AA, but then there are white men who support the good old boy network too.

spoken like only someone who's never been stigmatized by AA can

Again it comes back to my inability in your eyes to hold a valid opinion on the issue because I can never be the subject of the stigma. As I noted before.

I shant burden you with anymore stigma.

"Again it comes back to my inability in your eyes to hold a valid opinion on the issue because I can never be the subject of the stigma."

Nothing about your opinion. It is only people who have never been stigmatized who think it's fine for other people to be. Especially those they see as lesser than themselves.

"I shant burden you with anymore stigma."

Neither you nor anyone else. Cause I don't provide a racial profile even when directly asked.

I will commend you, muck, for not hauling out that tired old "human" race card. Guilty feeling whites sometimes do that right before or during an impassioned plea for racial preferences for their selected race race. It never fails to amuse.

Nothing about your opinion. It is only people who have never been stigmatized who think it's fine for other people to be. Especially those they see as lesser than themselves.

Are you implying that I see you as lesser than myself? Nothing could be further from the truth. I have expressed my reasons for supporting AA. It has nothing to do with minority inferiority and everything to do with majority racism (ie countering it).

Neither you nor anyone else. Cause I don't provide a racial profile even when directly asked.

Funny. Because you identified yourself as a minority in the first comment on this thread. It was that same one that you used a racial epithet to describe white people.

Does that mean you were looking for a helping of stigma?

I will commend you, muck, for not hauling out that tired old "human" race card. Guilty feeling whites sometimes do that right before or during an impassioned plea for racial preferences for their selected race race. It never fails to amuse.

That was incredibly condescending. I have nothing to feel guilty about. Rest assured.

Nothing about your opinion. It is only people who have never been stigmatized who think it's fine for other people to be. Especially those they see as lesser than themselves.

"Are you implying that I see you as lesser than myself?"

Are you for preferences for white people? If not, then yes, you see non-whites, likely excluding asians as lesser people. Otherwise you'd be for color-blind college admission and employment.

"I have expressed my reasons for supporting AA. It has nothing to do with minority inferiority and everything to do with majority racism (ie countering it)."

There's that guilt again. Hey, lots of people support the good old boy network, you're the same, you just have a preference for a different race.

"Funny. Because you identified yourself as a minority in the first comment on this thread."

and who asked me to?

"That was incredibly condescending. I have nothing to feel guilty about. Rest assured."

But it is you who thinks he/she does.

"Funny. Because you identified yourself as a minority in the first comment on this thread."

and who asked me to?

No one ask you to. You did it yourself. Man you make me laugh.

"No one ask you to."

my point precisely.

Are you for preferences for white people? If not, then yes, you see non-whites, likely excluding asians as lesser people. Otherwise you'd be for color-blind college admission and employment.

Well I see you simply wish to believe that people such as myself think less of you and nothing I am going to say here will change that. Good luck sorting out your issues.

There's that guilt again.

As I said. I have no guilt.

Yes, that's why you make me laugh.

Ooops, I almost missed this....

I said.....Neither you nor anyone else. Cause I don't provide a racial profile even when directly asked.

muck said.....Funny. Because you identified yourself as a minority in the first comment on this thread.

ah, so you know my racial profile then?

"Well I see you simply wish to believe that people such as myself think less of you and nothing I am going to say here will change that."

It isn't about me.

"As I said. I have no guilt."

Then where the hell does this come from:..... I have expressed my reasons for supporting AA. It has nothing to do with minority inferiority and everything to do with majority racism (ie countering it).

Unless you're not white, this is feeling guilt.

ah, so you know my racial profile then?

Did I say that.

You're the one who's making judgements about what peoples co-workers think about them based on their skin color.

Not me.

Unless you're not white, this is feeling guilt.

Gee Sigmund. Tell me more about myself.

So you completely deny that white racism affects the opportunities available to minorities in this country?

And because I am white the only reason I can feel opposed to racism against others is because of guilt? LOL!

You really do despise white people don't you.

"Did I say that."

Did I tell you my race?

"You're the one who's making judgements about what peoples co-workers think about them based on their skin color."

Nope.

"Gee Sigmund. Tell me more about myself."

You're a run of the mill, self-loathing, condescending, misguided but fairly harmless, white liberal.

"So you completely deny that white racism affects the opportunities available to minorities in this country?"

Do you deny that black racism does the same?

"And because I am white the only reason I can feel opposed to racism against others is because of guilt?"

You're not opposed to it. You're FOR AA. That's racism, pure and simple. Just the way preferences for white people were.

You're a run of the mill, self-loathing, condescending, misguided but fairly harmless, white liberal.

Nope.

I didn't expect you to acknowledge it.

I didn't expect you to acknowledge it.

Why should I. It's not true.

Sadly, it is true. It doesn't make you bad, you just don't have a very well thought out position. Your knee jerk acceptance of a racist program, because you think it's politically correct, isn't a deeply held belief in the equality of man.

Your knee jerk acceptance of a racist program, because you think it's politically correct, isn't a deeply held belief in the equality of man.

I don't support it because it's politically correct. I support it because I believe it can make a positive difference.

You feel otherwise. I know people who feel the same as you. I know people who feel the same as me. We can go back and forth with this for days.

Affirmative action preferences could make a positive difference for white kids too. Yet you don't support it for them. So that isn't why you support it for black kids.

When cops stop racial profiling blacks in L.A. and all the bad people on those "true life cops" shows aren't all black, then let's talk about eliminating Afirmative Action. Until that time, a time when black folks aren't routinely mistreated and stereotyped as the only criminals worth watching on so-called reality tv, I think programs that help someone gain their potential is the least society can do.

Affirmative action preferences could make a positive difference for white kids too. Yet you don't support it for them. So that isn't why you support it for black kids.

Ok if you say so. I'm through explaining myself.

If it was simply because they made a difference in lives, you'd be for preferences for eveyone. Sorry, but the logic does not work. Racism is racism, no matter what color is being preferred.

"When cops stop racial profiling blacks in L.A. and all the bad people on those "true life cops" shows aren't all black, then let's talk about eliminating Afirmative Action."

ah, all black are committing crimes in LA? Or on True Cops?

"Until that time, a time when black folks aren't routinely mistreated and stereotyped as the only criminals worth watching on so-called reality tv, I think programs that help someone gain their potential is the least society can do."

black folks....what a cosy way to put it. I guess white people have never been mistreated, stereotyped.

If it was simply because they made a difference in lives, you'd be for preferences for eveyone. Sorry, but the logic does not work. Racism is racism, no matter what color is being preferred.

Again, I've explained myself previously.

"Again, I've explained myself previously."

And I've explained that if it weren't just political correctness on your part, you be for making a difference in everyones' lives, not just one race.

You've been stunningly unable to explain why you are not in favor of making a difference in everyone's life through preferences.

And I've explained that if it weren't just political correctness on your part, you be for making a difference in everyones' lives, not just one race.

You've been stunningly unable to explain why you are not in favor of making a difference in everyone's life through preferences.

I'd love to make a difference in everyone's lives. I think we need to make small steps to get there. And I believe that focusing on equalizing the opportunites that everyone has is an appropriate first step towards that goal. I believe that AA can help towards that end in a limited capacity. Minority populations suffer disproportionately in this country. You know this. Why not try and alleviate that situation first. It's not going to happen overnight and some people are not going to get helped. But perhaps things will be that much better for their kids.

Do you have some plan to help everyone? Let me know I'd love to hear it.

"I'd love to make a difference in everyone's lives."

But you're for legislation to do so in only some people's lives. Based on race. It doesn't matter that you're for it for black people. That's just as wrong as it would be if you were for it only for white people. Can you really not see that?

"And I believe that focusing on equalizing the opportunites that everyone has is an appropriate first step towards that goal. "

Everyone won't ever have the same opportunities. A white kid from Appalachia is no less deserving than a black kid from the south side of Chicago. You don't advance one group by handicapping another. Haven't we already seen that?

"Minority populations suffer disproportionately in this country."

You'll never solve racism by being racist towards the group you think is displaying racism.

"Why not try and alleviate that situation first."

Because there's not inherently more deserving in a black kid than there is in a white kid.

"Do you have some plan to help everyone? Let me know I'd love to hear it."

Sure, base it all on economic need. Not race. There's nothing fair about sending Al Roker's kid to college ahead of some poor white kid from Newark. Yet affirmative action says Al Roker's kid needs the boost. No way.

Sure, base it all on economic need. Not race.

How about we base it on qualifications?

"How about we base it on qualifications?"

You mean like whomever has the best grades gets the boost to get into college?

Yeah!

Are you unaware that the greatest determinant of school achievement is economic background?

Are you unaware that the greatest determinant of school achievement is economic background?

And?

and what?

And so you propose what? Eleviate everyone's economic need?

I've already proposed it. Go back and read my post.

So you're going to help everyone accross the board who needs a boost based on their economic need? Good luck.

You believe race is a fairer way to help people? Lovely.

I'm genuinely interested in what you would propose. Seriously. What do you think should be done about poverty nationwide, white and minority. What should be done about the schools. About violence and drug abuse. About the fact that millions of kids grow up afflicted by diseases that we could prevent if they recieved adaquete healthcare at a young age.

I'm not interested in playing rhetorical games with you. You keep saying the Dems need answers. Lets hear some.

You anonymous posters might want to come up with some kind of an identifier so that the rest of us can tell who is who!

"I'm genuinely interested in what you would propose."

I've already proposed it. Why can't you read it?

I've already proposed it. Why can't you read it?

Which comment?

Go back and look.

As I said previously:

It's interesting that avaroo's comments dove-tail so well with many social theories about economic pressure and prejudice. Everything he spews yells, "I am not doing well economically, and it is the fault of someone else." Then he points his finger at an outgroup and yells, "It's them! They are the reason I can't make it!"

Although you claim otherwise, avaroo. You are the biggest racist on this blog. Stunning!

How about we base it on qualifications?Posted by at

What we do have in this country is that "qualifications" means being well-born and well-connected. Just go to the right school, meet the right people, and you and your cronies have got it made.

American has less social mobilitythan we think.

...They compared the incomes of 2,749 father-and-son pairs from 1979 to 1998 and found that few sons had moved up the class ladder. Nearly 70% of the sons in 1998 had remained either at the same level or were doing worse than their fathers in 1979. The biggest increase in mobility had been at the top of society, with affluent sons moving upwards more often than their fathers had. They found that only 10% of the adult men born in the bottom quarter had made it to the top quarter….