I am afraid that I am going to have to disagree with pessimist on this one.
India is a far, far poorer country than the U.S. and consequently would benefit to a much greater extent by the new jobs that Microsoft's venture entails. Because of the somewhat technical nature of cryptography and e-map technology, these jobs can be expected to be higher paying than most of the jobs in India.
Trends that bring about improvement in the welfare of those living in the developing countries should be welcomed, even if this means that the industrialized nations have to forfeit a bit of their prosperity. It is unconscionable for so many in the world to live in the squalor that they do, and such conditions lead to turmoil and unrest.
The lives of Indians are every bit as precious as the lives of Americans.
Posted by Herman at January 15, 2006 07:39 AMAs far as actually restricting speech, your piece doesn't mention anything M$ has done (at least yet!). You mention Yahoo's assistance with Chinese repression, and you mention Cisco making routers that China can use to conduct surveillance (just like us!).
Really, the issue here isn't free speech—since China's citizens have no First Amendment protections, and China's government hardly have the power to prosecute American citizens no matter what we say—but the possibility that the Chinese government could use their access to M$'s data mining shop to conduct espionage against American citizens.
But M$ will keep doing what they do until people buy products made by competitors who behave differently.
Posted by dj moonbat at January 15, 2006 07:43 AMdj:
M$ assisted in shutting down the blog ...
They provided the software means by which the government was able to take someone off-line. If that isn't restricting sppech, then call me Crappy!
Posted by pessimist at January 15, 2006 09:19 AMThe lives of Indians are every bit as precious as the lives of Americans.
I'm not saying that they aren't, Herman. But if the world were a level playing field, the Indians would be able to take care of themselves, as anyone who watches events in that region can attest. Did they not best American Top Guns in war games - twice???
One of my daughter's friends is Hindu. She's bright and very nice - and industrious as hell! She graduated from UC Irvine with a 4.0 and got a scholarship to Grad School! Such industriousness in (Asian) Indians will not go unrewarded.
My issue is with the American government and those corporations like Microsoft who can't gut THIS country fast enough for private gain. Will we not soon be saying "The lives of Americans are every bit as precious as the lives of Indians?"
Posted by pessimist at January 15, 2006 09:34 AMThey provided the software means by which the government was able to take someone off-line. If that isn't restricting sppech, then call me Crappy!
Yes, it's restricting the free speech of people who have no free speech rights. Should they have those rights? Sure, I guess. But they don't. When M$ starts shutting down American blogs after Chinese (or American) government pressure, then we'll have standing to complain.
Posted by dj moonbat at January 15, 2006 10:24 AMThe problem is that China has M$ by the balls, plain and simple.
As the worlds fastest growing economy and such a huge potential market with it's high population China to Microsoft offers one of the brightest new markets and the potential to be it's downfall at the same time.
Microsoft right now is in a real crunch, it has the vast majority of the PC Operating System and by extension the Office Applicatiosn market in the US and Europe. China represents a huge untapped market. It's also a market that could potentially shift to the alternative - Linux/OpenOffice. And it's already made some rumblings in that direction on a small scale (small for china) with Sun. That move undoubtly scared the bejezus out of Microsoft. If China's platform of choice became Linux then in the long run all that extra development time spent building that platform up would result in Linux dwarfing Microsoft and the end of Microsoft as we know it.
I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, but that potential has to give China some huge leverage over Microsoft. All they have to do is turn to them and threaten to enter into and even larger Linux deal and Microsoft will do whatever they want.
Posted by Siberian at January 15, 2006 10:30 AMMicroSoft has many R&D offices all over the world, in Europe and Japan, in Australia and Taiwan, in Africa and the Middle east. They fund research in universities and other institutions all over the world. Why?
Because they're an international company. They sell all over the world but they do so only at the sufferance of the local governments. If some three-bit country demands MS do something they either do it or they don't deal in that country.
China is an expanding developing country with 1.3 BILLION possible customers. Tossing that aside because you don't like the way they do things is a big step to take -- usually it's done when the United Nations decides enough is enough and international sanctions are applied. As for India, again MS sells a lot of software and services into its developing technical infrastructure and there's a billion Indians in that particular market. There's also a lot of brains and innovation there too, different ways of thinking and doing stuff which can be a big win for a company that's always trying to fake out the opposition.
When the Soviet Union fell apart one of the big winners was the world of statistics, mathematics and modelling as all of a sudden the West got their hands on a lot of innovative software tools built by smart people to run on limited hardware. These guys couldn't rely on modern silicon to speed up their algorithms for them, they had to dig deep to optimise their code and develop neat new ways to run the numbers, do a lot of basic research. I expect the Indian developers MS wil lbe hiring to do the same sort of things since they haven't been trained up in the American academic monoculture where only one way to do something is taught, generation after generation.
Posted by Robert Sneddon at January 15, 2006 10:32 AMI think that China needs Microsoft more than vice versa. China pirates almost as much Microsoft technology as it buys legitimately. Thus, they have a business incentive to cooperate in tracking and control technologies which would be useful to any totalitarian government. Considering Microsoft's bottom-line morality, it will be for sale.
Over In the EU, Microsoft is facing complete bannishment from European markets for non-compliance with the EU's anti-trust laws.
Microsoft is losing business everywhere [declining rate of growth, that is!], so they have an incentive to turn nasty in defense of their 'rights' - which will be exploited at the expense of everyone.
Posted by pessimist at January 15, 2006 01:02 PMBut if the world were a level playing field, the Indians would be able to take care of themselves -- pessimist
But alas, the world is not at a level playing field:
Gross National Income per capita, India: $480
Gross National Income per capita, U.S.: $35,060
Source: World Development Report 2004 (World Bank)
I don't know why, pessimist, when the unemployment rate in the U.S. is less than five percent you would begrudge India factories offering above-average wages. Do you believe that all the world's manufacturing should only take place in the current industrialized (developed) countries? Do you believe that we in the West should do nothing to help those living in the less-developed countries to achieve prosperity through industrialization?
Posted by at January 15, 2006 03:29 PMI don't know why, pessimist, when the unemployment rate in the U.S. is less than five percent you would begrudge India factories offering above-average wages. … Posted by atFirst, the true unemployment rate in the US is higher than Bush apologists like to tout. More importantly, it is not good domestic policy to offshore and outsource American jobs and doing so is not the same as aiding developing nations by lowering tariffs on their locally produced goods.
By off shoring and outsourcing, you are not only eliminating work for Americans, you are also removing payroll from the tax base, from the FICA base, and from the multiplier effect of wages spent locally without any compensatory charges to the companies using this practice. In fact, in most cases, off shoring and outsourcing merely leads to higher profits and greater executive pay and bonuses, while the company shields its profits from American tax collectors, thereby adding to the deficit.
Well, of course, offshoring would have a mild negative impact on the U.S. economy. But the introduction to more highly skilled and higher paying jobs would have a positive impact on the Indian economy and India is far, far poorer than the U.S.
Again:
Gross National Income per capita, India: $480
Gross National Income per capita, U.S.: $35,060
There can be no doubt which country's people need more help.
Then we should send them YOUR job! They need it worse than you do! You said so!
Posted by pessimist at January 15, 2006 07:24 PMGross National Income per capita, India: $480
Gross National Income per capita, U.S.: $35,060
There can be no doubt which country's people need more help
So, do people in places like Union County, S.C. where the unemployment rate has been over 10% for over 5 yeatrs need any help? Or should they move to India and compete with the natives for the textile jobs that they used to have.
"Then we should send them YOUR job! They need it worse than you do! You said so!" -- Pessimist
Actually, you can't, unless you're able to send the entire state of Pennsylvania to India. I work for state government.
"So, do people in places like Union County, S.C. where the unemployment rate has been over 10% for over 5 years need any help?" -- rip
The question should not be "Who needs help?" but instead one that establishes priorities: "Who urgently needs the most help?" In India 34.7 percent of the population struggle to get by on a $1 per day or less (Source: World Bank Atlas, 2003). I daresay that things just aren't quite as bleak in Union County, SC.
Posted by at January 16, 2006 07:05 AMpessimist, you write: "...creating 3,000 new jobs that used to go to Americans."
NONE of the links that you provide indicate that Microsoft laid off workers in the U.S. in order to build its factories in India. Consequently, in the absence of other evidence, one can only conclude that Microsoft's expansion ISN'T COSTING AMERICANS EXISTING JOBS (your phrase, "used to go to Americans" therefore being misleading to anyone interpreting "go" as meaning "belong").
I really don't know why you're upset about what Microsoft has done, unless you believe that Americans are more precious than poor Indians. Do you believe this?
Posted by Herman at January 16, 2006 07:38 AMThe question should not be "Who needs help?" but instead one that establishes priorities: "Who urgently needs the most help?" In India 34.7 percent of the population struggle to get by on a $1 per day or less (Source: World Bank Atlas, 2003). I daresay that things just aren't quite as bleak in Union County, SC.
Typical bureaucratic smugness, your a state government worker who doesn't have to worry (at least for the time being) about outscorcing, but your perfectly willing to see workers in the private sector lose their security because in your mind that's somehow "right." Disgusting. Not that you'd ever run for office "vote for me, I favor policies that export American jobs" but the Republicans would play you like a fiddle and call it "liberalism" if for some reason you were ever interviewed on Faux News.
The answer isn't to destroy the middle class in the devoloped world, that's just going to increase poverty everywhere. If no one in the devoloped world can afford to buy things from India, we're all going to be poor. You show no understanding of how economics or electorial politics work. Your good hearted, but it's the kind of good hearted "liberalism" that would lead to permanant right wing electorial victories by appealing to nationalism and hatred of the forigners who have all the jobs. In short, fascism.
Rip, what you completely fail to realize is that one person's job loss can be another person's job gain. (Actually, in this particular example there aren't even any job losses to speak of, as Microsoft did not lay off any Americans, they merely expanded their company into India). Don't you give a damn about poor Indians obtaining relatively well-paying jobs???
You mention that my job won't be outsourced, and regard me as smug. What you don't know about me are all the YEARS I had to deal with being either unemployed or underemployed, and yet NEVER ONCE did I resent good jobs being introduced to the Third World.
"The answer isn't to destroy the middle class in the developed world" -- RIP
Do you honestly think that having some high-tech manufacturing jobs go to the Third World is going to "destroy the middle class"???
Rip, you mention the word, "disgusting."
IT IS THE LACK OF CONCERN FOR THE DESPERATELY POOR OF THIS WORLD THAT IS TRULY DISGUSTING.
Anon.,
The point is, we have policies in place the encourage the export of high wage jobs. This turns economics into a zero sum game. It shouldn't be that way. In several counties near where I live, there is no manufacturing employment anymore. This used to be the heart of the textile belt. People without a college education are subsisting on the part time/ no benefit jobs that have no future. They aren't buying high end products from India or anywhere else, they go to the dollar stores and, this being a rural area, grow and eat a lot of home canned foods. This is a downward cycle economically, if current policies are not changed we wil have global feudalism where the top 1% owns everything and everyone else is an expendable peasent.
And your precious aIndians will not benefit from this.
Posted by rlp at January 16, 2006 11:57 AM