Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or give me death!"
Modern Republicans: "Take my liberty, I'm scared to death!"
Posted by Kilgore Trout at January 18, 2006 07:43 AMIt's as if king george wants to be the great pacifier, at the expense of Americans liberty.
Poor guy didn't achieve what he wanted to in the military so he really wants to make up for it now. What a sorry excuse for a human being!
Perhaps the saddest of all the ironies of the administration is how conditional everything is with them. Bush ran as a moral values candidate. Values are founded on absolutes like truthfulness and rightiousness. Yet, in their mindset, our liberty is conditional on whether or they think the terrorists are coming. Democracy is vital for the axis of evil, but not all of it. Iraqi freedom mattered, Iranian and North Korean freedom have to wait. The list could go on and on, but the central principal of this administration is expedency. Everything that "has" to be done to meet the current "crises" conditions, be it military or economic, coincides with a long desired goals of the Bush administration. What an incredable coincedence!
Posted by rlp at January 18, 2006 08:00 AMGive me liberty, and give me a Glock.
Posted by God Of War at January 18, 2006 08:13 AMSo, give me some specific examples of the liberties that have been taken from you.
Posted by muckdog at January 18, 2006 08:21 AMEriposte, I love ya, man, but I'm afraid you've over-thought this one. The way digby described it in his post and the way I interpret the phrase, it is a battle cry against the attempted monarchical rule that Bush and his cronies are trying to reintroduce in the US using the fear of terrorism as the impetus to strip us of our civil liberties.
Now, the cowardly neocon followers (the neocons themselves are too rich to be afraid of terrorism) are all too happy to give up their freedom for safety, but they're the only ones believing it's an either/or situation. When I say "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death," I mean I would rather die than become a serf in Bush's Amerika. Fear of terrorists has nothing to do with it.
So, give me some specific examples of the liberties that have been taken from you.
Posted by muckdog at January 18, 2006 08:21 AM
*****
Spoken like a true coward.
Ask the Quakers, or perhaps someone who was herded into a "free speech zone" and then arrested in NYC for protesting the GOP. Library records ring a bell? No fly lists? IRS documenting political affiliation?
Catching on?
Oh, I see...YOUR liberty hasn't been infringed upon...yet...so the denial of liberty to your fellow citizens doesn't matter.
How truly Republican of you.
Posted by God Of War at January 18, 2006 08:30 AMbut the central principal of this administration is expedency
The primary goal of the administration is the New American Century where we control everything in the world because of some fundamental right God granted us. The 'white mans' burden, if you will. The flaw is the expediency with which they tried to achieve this, and in completely misunderstanding the rest of the world might possibly object. It's ego-centrism in it's highest expression. The absolute inbability to take anothers perspective. They cannot accept that others think differently, and so engage in groupthink to salve their incompetence. If what those who know the White House say is true, the idiot son is completely disconnected from the United States. His handlers say what he wants to hear, and what they want him to know. Nothing more.
The neo-cons base warrantless searches on the premise that the Founding Fathers did not face this "new terrorism". That is absolute horse shit. The Founding Fathers had enemy troops on shore making war, and conducting warrantless searches by kicking in doors. Enemy troops would pop the door open and announce they were living with you for a while. They would take your guns, they would take your food, they would take your property, what they didn't take they burned, they would hang you, they would shoot you...all without trials, juries or judges. Hey, sounds like the perfect neo-con plan!
The Founding Fathers had it much more difficult, and had much more terrorism on shore than we do now. They gave us these liberties to protect us from unscrupulous leaders who would attempt to rule over us as Kings. The Founding Fathers would have known what to do with the current crop of leaders. Hung for sedition...their followers, too.
If there is a motto, it should: "We have our liberties. Take them at the risk of your own life, and all of the wealth you have ever acquired. Take them at the risk of your legacy, and with the knowledge that you will be viewed as a pariah by all patriotic Americans. Take them at the risk of your family honor, and know that your descendents will live in shame for eternity for what you did."
Posted by phidipides at January 18, 2006 08:32 AMSo, give me some specific examples of the liberties that have been taken from you.
Let me help you with this one: secret spying program. That means we don't know who they've been listening in on or whose text messages and email they've intercepted. However, given that the FBI has been spying on peace activists, it's fairly clear that there's an agenda at play here. And we do know that regardless of whether you personally feel that your civil liberties have been taken away, the 4th amendment says that they have. Why do you despise the Constitution so much?
Posted by ann at January 18, 2006 08:34 AMmuckdog, Won't get the hint until his "precious" Wall Street is in the dumps. (Ever the optimist, he will have sold high and be content to invest another day.)
Posted by bbtb at January 18, 2006 08:39 AMSo, give me some specific examples of the liberties that have been taken from you.
You only need one to know something is wrong. The right to be free from warrantless searches.
Posted by phidipides at January 18, 2006 08:41 AMIamcoyote,
I thought about that but because of the context of Digby's entire post and the discussions in the blogosphere at that time, I interpret his post differently. The issue I am raising is how that "motto" will be viewed in the current context. It's important for all of us to ensure that we use the right analogies because the motto, as it stands, unintentionally serves to bolster the argument of the Bushies that there cannot be liberty if you want to survive (against terrorists).
Posted by eriposte at January 18, 2006 08:43 AMGreat post phidipides.
I might add that our Founding Fathers had no organized armies or weapons. They fought with what little they had, organized themselves, recieved little financial assistance and kicked ass.
They did this for LIBERTY...this is the legacy that those of us who care are attempting to save.
Posted by Anjha at January 18, 2006 08:43 AM"I believe that our executive branch cannot continue to operate without the checks of the other branches. However, I stand behind the President in encouraging Congress to operate cautiously during the hearings so that sensitive government intelligence is not given to our enemies." -- Paul Weyrich, chairman and CEO, Free Congress Foundation
"Public hearings on this issue are essential to addressing the serious concerns raised by alarming revelations of NSA electronic eavesdropping." -- Grover Norquist, president, Americans for Tax Reform
"The need to reform surveillance laws and practices adopted since 9/11 is more apparent now than ever. No one would deny the government the power it needs to protect us all, but when that power poses a threat to the basic rights that make our nation unique, its exercise must be carefully monitored by Congress and the courts. This is not a partisan issue; it is an issue of safeguarding the fundamental freedoms of all Americans so that future administrations do not interpret our laws in ways that pose constitutional concerns." -- David Keene, chairman, American Conservative Union
"If the law is not reformed, ordinary Americans' personal information could be swept into all-encompassing federal databases encroaching upon every aspect of their private lives. This is of particular concern to gun owners, whose rights guaranteed under the Second Amendment are currently being infringed upon under the Patriot Act's controversial record search provisions." -- Alan Gottlieb, founder, Second Amendment Foundation
Posted by ann at January 18, 2006 08:47 AMAnjha, Believe me when the time comes, no matter the overwhelming odds, we will do it again, and be proud of it.
I don't know if anybody read Tom Teepen's op-ed piece from the Atlanta Journal & Constitution, titled "Revolution, anyone?". It's the first I've heard from a major media outlet of someone calling "for 1776, Part 2?". I could not find a link.
Posted by bbtb at January 18, 2006 08:56 AMOh, I see...YOUR liberty hasn't been infringed upon
Yet, I do remember when muckdog said, "I wish I had a rocket launcher! I'm learning how to make IEDs," and "Allahu Akbar, a hearty Klaatu Barada Nikto, and kill all the fascist pigs. I want to give a shout out to all my terrorist friends!"
Yes, I'm sure it was one of mucks posts. I certainly hope the NSA scutinizes him a little more closely. I think he's probably linked to a terrorist cell. In fact, I'm sure of it. There can be no doubt.
And they really need to scrutinize his family. These guys just breed more problems.
Hey! No need to ask a judge if I seem vindictive, just start looking. If he has nothing to hide, he has nothing to fear. Especially if he traded a company the government knows is selling in countries that support terrorism. Nothing to fear at all. But to be safe, he should maybe be held as an enemy combatant until we straighten this out. The NSA and our fearless leader who saved us single-handedly in Vietnam need to keep us safe.
Posted by phidipides at January 18, 2006 08:58 AMI'm disappointed that Muckd is presenting lame-ass Nero Jr. Talking Points ("what liberties have you lost?") that much less reputable trolls have already been relaying.
In addition to the liberties identified by others above, I have a right that the executive branch will not violate the laws enacted by Congress. That the president must follow the laws enacted by Congress is a fundamental basis of our liberty.
Nero has admitted he is not doing that and will continue his lawbreaking in future.
Posted by euzoius at January 18, 2006 09:03 AMAll this talk about who they might be spying on made me start thinking. I have a good friend who is married to a man from Yemen. He calls Yemen regularly because he has children there. He is in no way associated with al-Qaeda or bin Laden. His wife works on human rights issues, and her specialized area is the Middle East. She travels to Jordan frequently and is currently finishing a book on how Arab-Americans have been marginalized since 9/11. Any takers on whether these tax paying, peaceniks are being spied on?
Posted by ann at January 18, 2006 09:04 AMp-dippy, you're right, I remember mucky saying he wanted to visit his "brothers" in Afghanistan. He should be investigated.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 18, 2006 09:09 AMI know what muck is worried about it's his Nikkei stock, Tokyo has stopped trading. That's his liberty!
Posted by bbtb at January 18, 2006 09:16 AMThnks mckdg fr th sgwy. Hwvr, prhps m gng t ffr fw thngs tht sm my nt wnt t hr. Drng th tm f Ptrck Hnry th vrg mn, bng lltrt, knw fr mr f hmn ntr nd pltcs thn mdrn flk. Thy knw tht hmn ntr ws vl, s thy nttd vrs sprtn strtgs f r gvrnmnts. W hv lst mny fn chldrn t hndrds f pllg wrs drng th pst 100 yrs: lss f th frdm f lf.
r sm rblls fndrs ls knw tht th p nd cmng gnrtn wld b wtht dffrnc; s thy md sr tht th gvrnmnt wld nt try t rstrct rlgn. Th nly rlgn thy hd n mnd ws Chrstnty; thy wnt thrgh lt f crp ftr Crmwll dd. Ths ws th rsn tht ths rly Gd frng ppl cm t th clns. Th hmnst rlgn sbvrtd th Cnstttn frm th nsd nd nvntd ‘sprtn f chrch nd stt;’ ths dctrn s cmpltly ncnstttnl. Th nd rslt r scrs f pgn rlgns wth ql ftng wth th Trth f th Bbl; w nt th rmvl f th Bbl frm schls strtng n th rly 60’s nd th rmvl f Bblclly bsd crprl pnshmnt frm schls, (ndlss mr stff ws rmvd bcs f Bblcl grndngs). Lss f th frdm t cntrl th vl wthn mn’s bsc ntr, (f my 2nd nd 3rd grd tchrs, ll tgh ld wmn, ddn’t s tht bg wdn pddl n my ss, wld nt hv grdtd frm ndrgrdt r grdt schl. wld lk t thnk my 7th grd mth tchr fr btng my ss whn dsrspctd hm; h tght m fr mr thn lgbr).
Drng th 20’s, wth prssr f Cmmnsm, r crprt lrds, (whl gdng s n th bv drctn f rblln gnst Gd) nttd th ltmt prftrng cp by gvng wmn sffrg. Th nd rslt tdy, mng hndrds f scl cnstrctns f rlty, s n ncrdbl lss f lvs thrgh brtn.
Th ntr mrrg cntrct hs bn rdcd t mckry f th trth f mrrg. Lss f frdm ccrs n th lvs f ntld nmbrs f chldrn; lss f frdm n th rsng f chldrn, (fthrs smply d nt tk cr f thr wn kds ftr dvrc nd hv lttl dp ncntv t tk cr f th chldrn f hs nw dvrcd wf, tc. Chldrn f brkn mrrgs fl t mtr. Bys nvr gt bynd th sxl bsln; grls, d t pr-mrtl sx, nvr cmnt thr mrrg s thr sx drv ws wstd pn llct sxl ctvty. nd rslt s tht th mmtr ‘by‘ fls t lvngly hsbnd th wf n hs drv fr sxl slf gn. H‘ll dvrc s sn s sh cn‘t kp p wth hm). W nt tht wth th ncrs f pltcl nd fnncl ndpndnc f wmn, snc th 60’s, tst scrs f cdmc stndrds hv plmmtd t sch dpths tht w hv bn frcd t chng th tsts fr tms; ch tst chng s dmbng dwn. Chldhd vlnc s t ll tm hghs n rlty nd n fntsy; lchl nd drg s r strnmcl. Lss ff frdm nd prprty d t crmnl ctvty.
D t tdy’s stt f dlsnl mnstrm cgntn, vry fw wll s ny sns n th bv trcts. Lss f frdm hs ccrrd n crtcl cgntv sklls, (lk t lttl Bsh, th mn hs cm t pblcly syng tht trtr s lgl; ys, w’v bn systmtclly trtrng ppl rnd th wrld snc WW, bt ndr cvr. r crprt lrds hv crrctly srmsd tht thy hv dmbd dwn th ppltn, pcfd th ppltn wth dct t sch lvl tht thy cn chv thr drms f glbl dmntn. Nt th trm, ‘glbl dmntn,’ ths s th stff f wmn: ‘glbl vllg,’ r, ‘t tks vllg t rs chld,’ gn y s th mthrs bndnng thr lv bbs t th ncrng rms f strngrs. Th crrnt stt f scl ndrstndng, r lck f, ws plnnd by th crprt thnk tnks f 100 yrs g. Tr Chrstnty nd th nstttn f th fmly prclds prft. Nn-tr Chrstns fr vrythng…tht mpwrs th crprt pltcl srvnts. Sld fmls sv mny…nt gd fr spndng. Fml mpwrmnt ngndrs nlshd vnty; spndng, dvrc, r-mrrg, tc.… lt f prft, d nsm.)
Hnry hd hs mnkr wrng, ‘Gv m lbrty r gv m dth;’ th nly lbrty s th trth f th Bbl. Th nly lbrty tht Ptrck ws ncnscsly prppng ws, ‘Gv m lbrty nd gv m dth,’ fr trnl sprtl dth s th nly rslt f rblln gnst th Gd f brhm, f sc nd Jcb, k, Jhvh. (Th bv s nly vry tp f th scl lss f frdms.)
Eriposte, I understand what you're getting at: any motto that has to be explained isn't good, it's just hard for me to envision just how incredibly stoopid Americans are, even when I encounter it day to day. Maybe one in 50 of us would be able to say who said the phrase, when, and what it meant. Why bother with words at all, really? It's all advertising to the gormless wonders glued to the tv, anyhow.
btw, fuck you, scout.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 18, 2006 09:29 AMso they made sure that the government would not try to restrict religion.
Nope. The Founding Fathers discussed outlawing organized religions. None of the FFs were christian except two. They were New Age Enlightened rational Diests (god set the universe in motion, stood back, and man is as much an accident of nature as a chipmunk or a tree. God does not intervene. There is no good or evil beyond the morality man chooses for himself. To be moral, man must do good works and support man. There is no proof a "Christ" ever existed.)
Their logic behind allowing organized religion was that the masses were uneducated, and without the simple moralizing influence of religion these uneducated would return to their more base instincts.
The remainder of your analysis is driven by your religious beliefs, and there is not a simple fact to be found in it. Remember the Alms houses of the 18th and 19th centurys? Houses for unwed mothers. A huge problem because religious and moral Americans enjoyed fucking out of wedlock so much back then. Just one example, but salient.
Posted by phidipides at January 18, 2006 09:41 AM20 highjackers have put America in DIRE STRAITS. 19 highjacked planes and did horrible damage. However, the 20th highjacked our liberty. Yer do'in a HECK of a job, Bushy.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 18, 2006 09:55 AMp-dippy, thanks for saying what I was too lazy to say.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 18, 2006 10:21 AMMuck,
Others already teed off on it but here: Dissent is now a crime. Public disagreement with a sitting president and you now get charged with "Threats to a President".
A Secret Service official in South Carolina, Neal Dolan, admitted as much in Charleston last year when he declared that "If Bursey's prosecution holds, we have another dozen cases" across the country.
We all live in a bubble to some extent, but to continually display your complete and utter ignorance of life outside of your bubble used to be amusing but is now simply boorish.
Posted by Simp at January 18, 2006 10:37 AMScout:
I know you are living in a bubble, but if really desire to learn the truth
Then I suggest you go back in and read the history accounts, collecting several versions of the same time period – because all history accounts portray one version of what happen.
As phidipides pointed out the majority of the founding fathers were Diests and not Christian. The Founding Fathers did not want one organized religion, especially the Catholic Church – but they were also concerned about the Church Of England as well.
So they installed a loop-hole if you will … to allow the freedom of Religion
As far as the “truth of the Bible” – which version are you talking about?
You are aware aren’t you (and then if you aren’t you should study and find out)
There are multiple copies and versions of Bible.
The Council of Trent started the whole ball rolling so to speak and from then on several groups would pick and chose what went in and what stayed out of the Bible. After the Catholic Church got it’s Bible the Protestant groups came and selected portions to remove and add to create that work of Truth.
True now days (current times) the Bible has settled down into basically two forms, the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. But each of these versions has multiple translations and interpretations… don’t believe me then I suggest you look at a Spanish (or any other language) version of the Bible and compare it to your favorite version. Believe me you will discover some eye-openers.
In short stop being “spoon-fed” and do some real research before getting on your “High-Horse” and trying to rewrite history in your own image.
KJS, Just how I learned it a long time ago. Unfortunately, I've forgotten more than I've retained.
Scout needs to take some basic World Religion courses and he will be OK. That way he will understand that the "golden rule" still applies, 4000 years later!
That vote at Trent was not unanimous, either. Some for, some against, and some abstained. However, they ALL agreed that the women entitlements be left on the cutting room floor. The WORD of God?---Yea right. Male Gods.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 18, 2006 11:25 AMsimp,
Well, okay, when Hillary Clinton is president Rush Limbaugh, Neal Boortz and Sean Hannity can now be put in jail?
phidi-cent makes sense. What the ff didn't take into account is some of the pacified masses doing their Karl Marx opium would end up in the white house, and impose it on the rest of us. The obviously brainwashed from birth scout would qualify for a white house town hall meeting. Had he been born in Iraq, he would be on his knees 5 times a day, believe Mohammed is the ONLY salvation, and plant I.E.D.'s at night.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 18, 2006 12:01 PMTIKI
You are correct the Trent Council was not unanimous, in fact none of the Councils were unanimous (and there were several councils). The best one could say about these councils were they were very political. Only certain viewpoints were allowed to be included. The funny part about the whole concept was that even the individual writings were compromised so they (individual writings) could fit in with the whole viewpoint being written. I believe it was ACTS (though I could be mis-remembering since it was so long ago) That was completely rewritten from choice portions to help feed the particular view point. Paul (once known as Saul) became one of the Heroes if you will in ACTS because so many of His writings were slated to become part of the Testament. Problem was Paul was not one of the original followers, so something had to be done to increase his authority – so that his writings could become part of the cannon.
While other original followers (like Thomas and Bartholomew (sp?)) had their writings completely rejected – for various reasons (pretty much all political).
This whole Bible issue could become it’s own thread….
And I am not volunteering to make it one ….
My point is that if your faith teaches you the Bible is the truth from God,
Make sure you know how the Bible came into existence before you start
Doing your Bible Thumping.
I'll always prefer the Joseph Heller version of another old saw. Instead of "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees", I prefer "It's better to live on your feet than die on your knees."
Posted by Cap'n Phealy at January 18, 2006 12:11 PMOthers already teed off on it but here: Dissent is now a crime. Public disagreement with a sitting president and you now get charged with "Threats to a President".
Holy fuck! This the end of America as we know it. I was wondering if it would come by the point of a gun, or slip away quietly like an old person under sedation in a hospital. The latter was true. I'll be damned.
Hmmmm. I've always wanted to sail the good ship PHID to Antartica and see the penguins. Patagonia would be a lovely place to live...and much more free.
Posted by phidipides at January 18, 2006 12:41 PMKos linked this on his front page, but says Steve wrote it. I don't comment there, anyone want to set him straight?
Posted by iamcoyote at January 18, 2006 01:09 PMHow about "Give me liberty or give me corrupt complicit cronyist incompetent war-mongering lying bush fascist dictatorship?" Hmm. It sounds like "A choice, not an echo" (theme of Barry Goldwater Republicans back in 1964 when they were running against LBJ) to me... bush is total incompetent who can't even ride a bicycle without falling off. Brush-cutting seems to be his only skill. And this clown wants to be crowned King? At least Napoleon was competent as a leader...
As Al Gore so eloquently said on MLK Jr Day, Bush & Cheney have blown up this suppposed terror threat way way out of proportion to real and serious the dangers that we Americans faced back in the Cold War days vs. the nuclear-armed Russians and back to WW II with the fascist governments of Germany, Italy and Japan trying to take over the world and back to the wars of Independence in 1776 - 1783 and the second war of Independence in 1812 - 1815 when the Brits invaded USofA.
Blame this mess partly on our 21st century corporate media with its endless instant replay and the power of television to horrify and scare the masses, but its power fades over time. The images of bush incompetence and bush corruption and bush lies have finally sunk into the minds of the American people and there is nothing that bush can do now to reverse this.
Humpty-bushy had a great fall. All the Kings courtiers and all the Kings cronies couldn't put bushy back together again.
Cheers, James.
KJS: Hallelujah brother! The day AFTER I was confirmed, I did rebel theologian Martin Luther one better, by becoming agnostic. Just because 99 generations of my brainwashed ancestors were Christians, I'm supposed to accept the status quo unquestioned? It was bible study that showed how illogical it would be to accept this edited collection of tales as anything but a tool of power. And you are correct, the loudest thumpers know little of its origin. My "born again repub" neighbor thought the Council of Trent was a meeting in Lott's congressional office.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 18, 2006 02:35 PMCake or death!
Posted by Eddy at January 18, 2006 02:45 PMTIKI AL, I had to remember it also. I did think it was a "daisy chain" in Trent's office as well.
Posted by bbtb at January 18, 2006 03:19 PMbbtb: re: your post on golden rule. One universal "club" based on golden rule, how simple, how peaceful. Too bad most people are just animals with rules and laws and enforcement preventing them from total disaster. i.e. body bags. Is Phoenix anywhere near Tempe?
Posted by TIKI AL at January 18, 2006 03:50 PM"Any takers on whether these tax paying, peaceniks are being spied on?"
Are you kidding? If they think the Quarker anti-war group is a threat and spied on them, holy moly, they are probably getting to arrest your friends.
should read "getting ready to arrest your friends."
Posted by Judith at January 18, 2006 04:17 PM"I remember mucky saying he wanted to visit his "brothers" in Afghanistan. He should be investigated."
Iamcoyote, get out your little red book and put his name in it and turn him in.
I always wondered after Russia fell, and our leaders could no longer scare us with a "red under every bed", how they would continue to control us with fear. The Red Scare has been replaced with the Terrorist Scare.
Posted by Judith at January 18, 2006 04:34 PMTIKI AL, Yea, I'm in Avondale! Just north of I-10, Thomas and Dysart.
Posted by bbtb at January 18, 2006 05:00 PMThe Council of Trent is the 16th century! It is too late to decide which books are in the Bible for purposes of the Catholic Church. I would give the initiative to the Protestant churches for not recognizing the apocrypha. I have MacCulloch's "The Protestant Reformation" at home but didn't start it yet.
Of course, the books of the Old Testament were decided on about the same time the Mishnah was written.
2 more hours are available to vote in the JIB Awards, although DovBear should get through to the final round in every category in which he was nominated.
Thnks phd. m hppy tht wnt t chck n dmg, nd vn mr hppy t fnd th thrd. Ths plc s bsy. Hwvr, ccrdng t Brdfrd, ( Wrthy Cmpny: Brf Lvs f th Frmrs f th ntd Stts, p. 4-5) 52 f th 55 Cnstttnl frmrs wr ‘vnglcl’ Chrstns.
Ths fct ds nt mn tht thy wr trly f Gd; jst tht thy prtlly ndrstd ngh bt ‘dmcrcy’ t cltvt th vtrs fr ftr lctns. n thngs ths trsns dts ddn’t wnt t d ws rl wrk: tht s, frmng. Gltns 4:24-26 shws s tht thr r tw frms f th ‘chrch;’ th xtrnl, whch cnssts f th vrs Chrstn gngs, nd th Jwsh Syngg; nd th trnl chrch, th lct. Jst s th Jwsh ldrs fld t s tht Jss ws Gd, nd klld Hm bcs H ws pltcl thrt t thr trdtns nd thr stndng wth thr Rmn lrds, th Cthlc Chrch st p thr ‘cncl f Trnt’ t cntr Bblcl Trth wth thr trdtns s ql t th Bbl. Wrs, ths dts dfndd thr bzrr ‘ndlgncs’ nd vrs crsds f pllgng shml, cpl mng mny mr. Frthr, thy systmtclly kckd th sss f sld, tr Chrstns by th thsnds drng th prd f Spnsh nqstn, th tm f th rgnl ‘Cnqrr Wrm,’ f whch r Bsh cbl nd ts crprt hndlrs r stdnts, ll stdnts f Mchvll. Ths, s tdy, shw tht th xtrnl chrch s ppltd wth flk nt ntrstd n th Trth, bt thr wn vrsn f th Trth; thr wn gspl, f y wll, fr slf gn.
Whl thr r mny nglsh vrsns f th Bbl, th Kng Jms vrsn, lthgh nt prfct, s th bst. Th bst wy t rd th Bbl s n th rgnl Hbrw nd Grk, wth lttl rb. Ths s pssbl wth ntrlnr trnsltns; tht wy, y dn’t nd t lrn th lngg, t jst tks lngr. Th KJV, cmpltd n 1611, hd sm vry sld trnsltrs tht shwd thy ndrstd bsc prncpls f th Bbl. Ths s ncssry n rdr t ndrstnd hw th lngg syntx s t b nrvld.
Nw, th hrd prt. Th ntr Bbl, n th rgnl, s wrttn by Gd. Jrmh 1:4 shws tht ths ws dn by Gd spkng t th prpht nd nstrctng hm t wrt dwn th wrds. Th ld Tstmnt s th sm s th Jwsh Tnch. Th pcryph ws wrttn svrl hndrd yrs ftr th NT, nd fctn. Th Cthlcs ddd th pcryph, nd sm nglsh lts dd th sm, fr shrt tm, t th KJV.
Th Bbl s wrttn n t lst thr lvls: hstrcl, mrl, nd sprtl. Th sprtl lvl s nly ndrstndbl f Gd pns th ‘rs nd ys’ f th rdr, (Mrk 4:12, n vrs mng mny dntcl). t s ths sprtl lvl tht ll tr Chrstns s s n. Th rsn w hv 400 ‘Chrstn’ dnmntns s bcs thy r ‘wtht sprtl ys’ jst s thr Jwsh prdcssrs drng th tm f Jss.
Jst s drng th dy f Chrst, ths r th src f hypcrts. Thy mk p thr wn gspl t st thr nds. Thrfr, r fndng ‘fthrs,’ prfssng t b ‘Chrstn,’ yt rnnng rnd cmmttng dltry nd frcng thmslvs pn thr bght nd pd fr slvs; dlng, (Hmltn nd Brr) d nsm. Ths gys hd n fr f Gd, whch s gft f Gd. ls, ‘fth’ s wht th rdmd/svd prsn rcvs, (ftr bng svd).
Th crtcl thng, nd wht bth Crmwll, Clvn, nd wht ws spkn bt t th Synd f Drdt, n 1618, s tht Gd knw xctly wh H ws gng t spr frm Hs wrth, bfr crtn. Hngd t ths s tht th svd prsn dd nthng fr slvtn; h s cmpltly nbl t lk t Gd nd thnk tht Gd ws mprssd wth hs bhvr, s H svd hm. 99 prcnt f mdrn ‘Chrstn’ dnmntns blv tht ndvdls r bl ‘t ccpt Gd,’ whnvr. Dd wrng, jst s r Jwsh ncstrs wr wrng nd vn th frst srlts, tht lft gypt, ftr sng Gd’s pwr n dy t dy bss, dd f nblf, (Hb 4:6, thnk).
KC, hr s th frst mndmnt rgrdng rlgn: ‘Cngrss shll mk n lw rspctng n stblshmnt f rlgn;’ thy dd nt wnt th Stt t ntrd pn Chrstnty, jst s th Chrch f nglnd bgn t d ftr Crmwll dd; nd s th Cthlc Chrch dd snc th Vsgths kckd Rmn ss, p ntl th Spnsh nqstn. r mdrn scty s jst s pgn s th ncnt Grks, Rmns, ztcs, ncs, Bddhsts, Hnds, shmls, nd whtvr thy clld tht gfy wtch rlgn, d nsm. Whl Hmltn prbbly knw smthng bt crprtn strctr, thr s n wy ny f th rblls mrcns f 1787 wld hv ntcptd th scl crp f th mdrn r; yt, w hv n prblm sng r scl trsh t cvr r grdy grsp f th wrld’s rw mtrls. Ys, tht r bsnssmn ‘fthrs’ wld nt nly ndrstnd, bt lv, jst s Stn lvs vrythng bt Gd. Ths s why th nsvd r clld, ‘sns f dstrctn.’
"I always wondered after Russia fell, and our leaders could no longer scare us with a "red under every bed", how they would continue to control us"
in your case, I'd guess a tinfoil hat
Posted by at January 18, 2006 09:08 PM"If they think the Quarker anti-war group is a threat and spied on them, holy moly, they are probably getting to arrest your friends."
Yeah, those damn Quarkers.....
I think we should spy on them to find out why they haven't updated that picture on the oatmeal box.
The entire Bible, in the original, is written by God. Jeremiah 1:4 shows that this was done by God speaking to the prophet and instructing him to write down the words.
Not to blaspheme but really scout, do you know how crazy that sounds! This is how cults get started, oops, sorry God!
Posted by bbtb at January 19, 2006 07:22 AMScout,
Sorry to be blunt but,
What's the point?
Posted by at January 19, 2006 08:12 AMbbtb: I was going to build a time machine to travel back to the 16th century and put my 2 cents in at the council of Trent Lott, however, after reading that crap from scout, I will make it 4000 years, and plant a copy of "Pinnochio" in a cave by the Red Sea. Worshipping a long nosed marionette with a penchant for telling lies as written by God, has to be a harmless improvement. P.S. You live in East L.A., not Phoenix.I bought a door on 186th and Yuma, and 2 hours later the shop burned to the ground. Having told a Luke A.F.B. employee at the shop what a jerk I thought Bush was for invading Iraq, I'm still waiting for the arson investigators to visit me. It was a coincidence, HONEST!
Posted by TIKI AL at January 19, 2006 08:48 AMThis is how most progressives feel, I suspect. Not that there are no threats. But that the Bush Administration policies do nothing to protect us against them.
No one believes that a dirty bomb in one of our cities is not a possibility, but giving up our civil liberties does not shield us against that threat, it makes it even worse.
All the secrecy and cabal-ish decision making of the Bush administration does not make us safe, it engenders incompetence and corruption. That makes us less safe, and right now– not in the long run.
Attacking the constitution and it’s separation of powers, the Bush Administration has become a great and dangerous threat to our republic. Another front in the war. A great betrayal.
The Bush Administration thrives on presenting false choices. They say we must choose between civil liberties and security, fiscal responsibility and spending on education, useful intelligence and our morality.
But time and time again, Bush has done nothing but prove, hopefully for all time, that under his programs we come up empty.
Kudos to the Left Coaster for setting us straight. Liberty and Life. I like the sound of that. That’s what we are fighting for.
Unless Bush is a tyrannical monarch, and then, all bets are off… So I’m not throwing Patrick Henry under the bus just yet.
Posted by TimeTogether at January 19, 2006 09:22 AMYet another thread with rants castigating christians, bush, republicans, anyone with a contrary opinion and the like. Is it comforting to rant on the injustic of it all? Kind of like sucking your thumb? I may be a new here but really people get over it. Dreams of impeaching bush are just that, DREAMS. Are you angry because the democrats are out of power? Must be.
The last couple of days the talk here has been about how gore gave a great speech. What? Going into black preacher mode and saying things in a holier than thou manner may please those already in the kool aid line, but who else really?
And all of this talk about republicans being so afraid of the terrorists. It seems to me that everything that bush does sends you all into a tizzy. You all tremble afraid at what right will be taken away next. Lets count those lost so far.
1. You can't talk to a terrorist on the phone with out big brother looking over your sholder! Good God, what is the world coming to.
2. Big brother can look at what books I have read. Oh, except they haven't. BUT THEY COULD!!!
Get a grip. It's you all who sound scared, of the big bad bush that is.
Put things in context. Look at the history of america to find real instances of overreaching by executive power. FDR and the internment of citizens, Linclon suspending Habius Corpus, Truman and the steel mills. All icons representing the best of our nations presidency. The constitution grants far reaching authority to the executive branch in a time of conflict. Congress can pass all the laws they like, but they cannot over reach in turning back the power of the executive branch to defend the nation. It really is as simple as that. You can talk FISA court all day, but it is a phony pretense. It simply does not apply.
Posted by caliman at January 19, 2006 09:40 PMGive a repuke a chance and he can't even stay on topic!
Posted by bbtb at January 20, 2006 05:27 AM