Actually your reversion to Stoogedom is apropos. THe foul-mouthed, sputtering-angry God of War reminds me a lot of Moe. He's the same kind of bully.

pessimist, you're exactly right. But as we know, the idiots are here to disrupt, demorialize and disinform. The cockroaches always swarm when the queen bush is in trouble. Especially when Libby starts talking to the prosecutor about Cheney's orders to out a covert agent and it hits the front pages. Especially when Bush's big story about foiling a terror plot sounds like the tale about Mohammed Atta before 9-11 that we heard soon after, but the press ignored. You know, when the hijackers were in the US and the FBI declined to follow them? The fire in Malaysia? It's all eerily familiar.

OK people, carpe issued the same challenge to GOW that j.west was involved with (I think) Goose1.
Here is what carpe had to say:

DOG OF WHINNING,
I'm willing to challenge you to the NOC matter. Ann refused to do it.
Are you man enough?

I'll leave TLC if you will agree to those terms too, depending on the actual facts that are eventually produced regarding that matter.

Steve tracks my IP addresses, I have several, work, home, handheld, and I know he tracks you too, unless of course the public library changes its IP again.
So be a man, take my challenge and then evict me from this site....or risk being exposed to the truth when you have to go bye bye...
You're not scared are you? I've made this challenge openly to the entire list, and no one is man/women enough to take it.
I think you Dog of Whinning should take the challenge and prove that you are a Fu*king Giant among your peers.....
You know you want to.... C'mon, I'm waiting....
Posted by carpediem at February 9, 2006 09:23 PM

I don't think he takes the Newsweek article as proof.
He prefers to listen to people like Byron York of the National Review and FAUX news.

Please, I'd prefer this troll be gone for good like u.jest.

He would be gone if we would ignore him and all the trolls.

It now seems that Bush knew about the levees shortly after Katrina. Why am I not surprised.

At this point, I'm ready to ban GoW, as well. I'm just sick of the pointless dick-swinging, and I'm just about ready to find another home base, which is what they want, but wtf. It's obvious some folks enjoy pointless bickering over and over, and that's great. So make a thread each day for them and confine them to it. Delete the trolls from all but the designated open threads. These trolls serve no useful purpose in society, and should be caged. Let volunteers like GoW be the handlers, and everyone's happy.

Think of it this way: you're invited to a party at a friend's house. When you get there, two of the guests are throwing pots and pans at each other, but the host doesn't eject them. Pretty soon, you're not going to go to any more parties at your friend's house, are you?

Of course Judith and coyote, your right. This isn't as straightforward as the other bet.
The arguing and petty name calling will just continue.

bbtb, and you saw how well u.jest's promise worked. Since crappy has no honor now, what makes anyone think he'd honor any promise?

Ignoring trolls is like ignoring bullies. Some of them will leave, but most of them, as we have seen, will behave like the bully thugs they are and keep sucker punching.

The GOParasites think "liberals" (who founded this nation, by the way) are weak, and that they, who would have stood by King George in 1776, are the strong defenders of America. Its revolting, really, a complete whitewashing of American history.

For the trolls, disengagement serves to embolden them and is interpreted by them as our capitulation to their lies.

We've failed to fight back against these rotten, unAmerican thugs for the past decade, and look where its gotten us: Totally out of power, marginalized by fascists. You can ban me if you want, but I'd suggest that somebody continue to beat these bastards down and expose them for the lying, traitorous scum that they are. Goddman, we've got an idiot on here claiming that at this date, post-indictment, that the best prosecutor in America and the CIA have failed to determine that a CIA agent was actually undercover. That kind of misinformation must be demolished, lest the lie be repeated enough to gain legitimacy.

Consider one troll who hasn't been around much lately: avaroo. I think we successfully pushed him/her out by calling the troll out for what it is. I don't think the name-calling worked but the shaming of the troll can be effective, but only if the troll has any shame.

GOW, I agree with you. And I'm on your side, that's why I brought it up.
You are so much more articulate when you don't hurl the swearing rants. I know they piss you off, me too. You say what I want to, sometimes.
Occasional interjected swear words are fine by me.

"the shaming of the the troll"?

You silly girl!

t sms ntrly pprprt n ths st, dvtd s t s t Grg W. Bsh, nd bng s w r ll gthrd tgthr n hs nm, tht nslts nd nm cllng b rsrvd t ths whs lvs cntr n htng hm.

carpe diem I may disagree with a lot of what you say but I don't have any desire to see you banned. The problem is when a good topic is posted and should generate some good dialogue on both sides of the aisles it gets quickly off topic and degenerates into ridiculous name calling.

Unfortunately, the challenge you issue is false and you pretty much know it. Even if Dick Cheney and Scooter held a video conference and said yes we illegally outed Plame and yes we knew she was a covert spy, you'd say the cameraman and video editor faked the whole thing. So pick up the challenge. You like it here and you want to stay. Fine.

But trolls are on both sides of the aisles. From time to time I've seen our friends on the right post something pretty innocuous and get hammered with profanity and name calling.

Should some people be banned? That's up to TLC. However it's silly to have a blog rally saying "rah rah sis boom bah (yikes!!!) ignore the trolls" and then the minute the right side comes with their opposing viewpoint we're right back where we started. People who were leading the cheer are the first ones to fire back.

Nothing wrong with some good give and take. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
Anything else in my opinion is a waste of energy.

We should be focused on more important things like solving the age old question......Ginger or Mary Ann? And why isn't Barbara Eden in that equation? Oops, sorry ladies.

GoW, yep, you've beaten them down all right, they've seen the error of their ways and now believe that Plame was undercover. Not. They are here to disrupt, not to learn, and you help them. End of story. You think you're strong by swearing at them, but by falling for their taunts, you show your weakness. It has nothing to do with swear words, it has to do with back and forth insults that do nothing but drive people away. The trolls can count on your inability to ignore them, they are playing you like a fiddle, and laughing at the ease with which they can do it. Sadly, we all pay for it.

Great photo of the Repug leadership. But is it Dumbya, Big Time and Rumsfuck or Frist and his Senate stooges??

We should be focused on more important things like solving the age old question......Ginger or Mary Ann? And why isn't Barbara Eden in that equation? Oops, sorry ladies.

Posted by Daryl at February 10, 2006 06:26 AM

I can think of a few others from that time frame, too. Ellie Mae Clampett, the Petticoat Junction girls, Barbara Feldon from Get Smart. Let's broaden our horizons people...

And what's with the or condition in the quiz? There's nothing wrong with any of them. Ginger or Mary ann? Yes!

Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Mmmmm - goils! Moe, Larry - let's get married!

To get uson

Attack of the 50-foot Oprah

Thompson says Winfrey’s clout conjures up several other TV icons, including newscaster Walter Cronkite, talk-show host Johnny Carson, and kiddie-show host Mister Rogers. But television historian Alex McNeil makes a more interesting point by comparing her to Arthur Godfrey, the folksy, affable (on camera, at least), and ubiquitous variety-show host of the ’50s who had an uncanny ability to convince Americans to purchase the things that he endorsed — from cigarettes to appliances.

“When he personally pitched a product, you bought it,” recalls McNeil. That’s Oprah’s calling card.

. . The next day, Frey’s spanking made the front pages of newspapers with editorial philosophies as diverse as the New York Times and Boston Herald. But the sheer shrewdness of Oprah’s handling of the situation was reflected in the fact that it was her punishment of Frey — rather than her own poor judgment — that became the story.

“I have no sympathy for James Frey ... but it did remind me of a show trial,” says Lehmann. “At the very least in any rational literary culture, it would not only destroy James Frey’s credibility, it should have destroyed hers.”

But as one headline on an Associated Press story suggests, Oprah’s real interest in ultimately demolishing Frey was to “protect” her “brand,” and the mighty Oprah empire. And in a strange way, the whole ugly episode may have caused her legend and power to grow.

Annnnnnnnnd the money quote:

The Post’s Eugene Robinson wrote a January 31 column marveling at “the wrathful, Old Testament Oprah” who gave Frey “that awful public smiting,” and asserting that “if there were justice in the world, George W. Bush would have to give his State of the Union address from Oprah’s couch.”

That idea was seconded by syndicated cartoonist Mike Luckovich, who drew a caricature depicting a chagrined-looking Bush — who had just delivered his speech — and a disapproving Oprah sitting next to him on the couch uttering a loud “BULL!!!!”

The moral of the story: even the leader of the free world had best cower before Oprah.

TANJ. Too bad Oprah won't risk her brand image to serve the same kind of spanking on Dubya that she dished out to Frey. But then again, the bullies only typically take on the targets they know will cower.

After Cat Stevens, let's deport the French!

It seems entirely appropriate on this site, devoted as it is to George W. Bush, and being as we are all gathered together in his name, that insults and name calling be reserved to those whose lives center on hating him.

Does George Will know you're stealing his hairpiece and his soul everytime you post?

As I understand it, trolls are suffering from Stockholm syndrome. They've been living in a dark closet for a long time on a solid diet of fear so that all that is left of them is the desire to please their captor by mimicing his talking points. Sad sad sad

Well, fwiw, I personally think that GOW plays a role here as does everyone on these boards. I haven't posted much lately mostly because the site is being overrun by koolaid drinkers that post the same recurring story line (liberals are full of hate, Plame was not undercover,Fitzgerald is a hack, and Plame and Wilson are traitors, Bush breaking the law is good because Al qaeda is out to hurt us)and they rarely stay on topic. Now I am guilty of the not staying on topic myself, but the trollbots like David and crappy, their comments are more like spam lately. It's the same non-thinking, irrelevant, continuous comments and drivel/Rnc talking poinst, over, and over, and over....often all within the same thread and often repeated on multiple threads. For some reason they think that if they repeat something several times it then magically becomes true.

I bet if you added up how many times they post here it is far more than any other person lately. How many times have you witnessed both of them post 3-4 long comments in a row,never mind more than that within a single thread. I have noticed they often do that at the end of a dying thread too. But each comment essentially says the same thing. It's just nuts, definitely doesn't add value, and is abusive...which is what they want.

Their sole purpose is to disrupt, to annoy, and to piss off enough people so they stop commenting or leave or the site. That is all they care about. Plus both have proved they have NO credibility whatsoever, but they are probably the most prolific commenters here at this site these days.

How to battle that idiocy and imho abuse...well it's not my site so I really have no say, but I still have an opinion. I say we should just take one of their old comments,place it near the beginning of a thread and leave it there because it is so predictable what they will say. Plus that will save us all the wasted time of scrolling past them to actually read a commenter that has something interesting to say, or read a commenter that offers a new thought process and angle, or offers an new link to different post.

Now, I am not the proprietor of the site,but I'll start. Below is a summary of a post that crappy will post regarding the subject here today.

Dear liberals, So much for free speech and the truth that you can't handle because you are so blinded with hate. David, Toby, avaroo, A former dem, Sarge,dipshit, and I are all just trying to have a rational conversation with you but you have to hurl invectives and threaten to ban us because we have posed legal arguments or facts that collide with your delusions and prove you wrong on a daily basis. A sad lot you are. None of you can prove that Plame was undercover and your lame threats against me prove just that. Trying to silence my opinion just proves how weak you all are here, but I knew that already because I am a lawyer. Sincerely, carpekoolaid.

Now that I have that out of the way, it might clear the way for some other important stories/discussion hitting the news cycle, another CIA official says pre-war intelligence misused by administration . Let the swiftboating begin...how many whistleblowers against the adminstration does that make now.

And More Buscho lies about NOLA levee failure knowledge. Heckuva job with that National Security Disaster response Bushie.

One day it will be newsworthy when Bush tells the truth...but pigs will fly when that happens.

I have several comments, as usual.

Dear God of War, (I return to your origninal name) why? Because the above post, while somewhat passionate, did not threaten me or my children, and used little if any profanity. Congrats.

As to the liberties that TLC gives to the trolls, I suspect that Trolling makes most of the posts. Look at the threads where no trolls tread, they are few and far between.

We generate alot of discussion, some good and some bad.

If you guys merely want this to be Choir Practice and you only want the true hard core religious types to be hear, singing about how you hate the Bu$hco's (as Mr. Copyright violator calls him) then fine. Change the header on the website and say it.

Because a religion this is. You liberals are a sect of religious fanatics but instead of a diety in a creator that you may worship, its a socio-logical fanatic adherence to a form of govererning the masses.

I would be pissed if the church I went to had muslims standing up and laughing about what my paster was saying and by pointing out the inconsistencies in the Bible. (BTW: I'm an agnostic and don't attend any church.)

You guys are hardcore, as I am. We attend different churches. I consider this website the neighborhood playground/community center. It used to be the neighborhood only had "your own kind" in it. Now a few trolls moved into the Smiths' old house down the street and they keep walking down your side walks and attending a different religious church up the street.

This ticks you off, and I understand that. We have been abusing your community by showing you the errors of your ways, and this embarrasses you.

But if you want the trolls to go away, then limit the membership, make users sign a membership list contract.

1. I believe that hate is an appropriate way to lead the Democrats.
2. I believe screaming and hollaring gets our point across better than honest debate.
3. I believe listening never works unless by chance its Kos or Gore speaking.
4. I believe that Funerals are places to demonize all Republicans....
5. I believe facts are not necessary for the truthiness of what I want to believe...

Continue on down the list... if so, I'll not sign the petition and just find somewhere else to go.

I completely agree with iamcoyotes reaction to GoW's tirades. When I read your rants GoW sometimes I think perhaps you are a rightwinger just here to post your insensed reactions as a way to make liberals look like psychotics. LOL! Now I'm rather sure that that's not true but I think your particular approach to "beating down the trolls" has the very effect that iamcoyote identifies. It gives them a boner to see that they can evoke such a reaction from you. It's what they want. Why do you think Bendito never responds once posting his/her initial taunt? Because they realize that their non-response just pisses you off even more.

To be blunt; you give them exactly what they're looking for. I have no problem with 'trolls' being able to post comments here. I just think people need to be smart in their responses. I don't see threats of violence and macho chest thumping as a really helpful stimulant to either intelligent dialog or to putting 'trolls' in their place.

And right on cue.....hate.

Exactly, emal.

Carpe says nothing worth discussing ans simply spews the type of hate that he claims eminates from this site.

Now nothing would make Carpe's day more than for the assembled audience here to jump up and down and react to his inanity.

Just read it, laugh and move on.

Thank you Snerkly,

Getting angry does give me a rise, I love it when my children are threaten. I love to hear how you will rejoice in my personal demise or that of my children.

But I also love it when you are so dismissive of the trolls as if we offer no fact or arguments worthy of your time.

I find this to be juvenile. Your approach is to take your bat and ball and move over to the other side of the playground where at most three or four of you can play a good game of "attaboyisms".

Instead of playing against another team that wants to play with you and that beats you repeatedly, you instead cower, you run away, you bitch and moan of how your little playground used to be so fun to play on, until the new kids showed up and "ruined everything".

We play hardball, with hard facts that directly confront your Daily Kos version of the truth.

I know its hard for you to grasp, even harder for you to admit, but the Republicans have been tanning your backsides since 92, and it really pisses you off.

I suggest you try a Seinfield remedy. The episode was about George, actually opposite George. George tried doing everything exactly the opposite of what he thought he should do and viola, everything turned out right.

I suggest you left wing looneys should follow his advise.

Note the snide baiting comments? The attempts continue!

But if you want the trolls to go away, then limit the membership, make users sign a membership list contract.

Oh, you must mean something like the loyalty oaths that people have to sign to attend Bush/Cheney events.

pessimist, I'm just waiting for the ever predictable "why has no one taken me up on my challenge? It's because you're all whimps and know I am right" post any minute now....it's bound to come.

Daryl, your likening this discussion to the pie fight is off base and insulting. This is about the community we have built up here, and how it's been taken over by trolls that add nothing to the discussion. They don't discuss. They repeat - ad nauseum - the talking points of the day in long, rambling posts, in a ratio of 5 to 1 over anyone that responds to them. If I wanted to read the RNC's daily blast fax, I'd sign up for it.

GoW, as for answering the misinformation the trolls are trying to put out - that's what the original posts are for, that's what they do. And if someone disagrees and gives actual information why, then they're not a troll, they are discussing. How physical threats convince anyone of anything, I'm not sure, but you do it a lot, and it's just not helping anyone.

I didn't call for GoW's banning, I just said I'm ready for it, because, as snark said, sometimes you have to wonder if he's a plant to give the trolls a reason to continue posting. As I said, why not have a thread just for trolls and their feeders; that way, anyone who enjoys the pointless back and forth can stay there while the folks who don't want to deal with it, can hold a conversation without having to scroll through 5 crappy posts for every one threat from GoW. Hell, on a cranky day, I'd probably join in the flinging of insults for a bit.

So what do you think of the Newsweek article, carpe? And why do you think Plame was not covert?
Don't just give us York's point of view.

Have your kids joined the military yet?

I think this is more interesting than waiting for trolls to post their talking points:

"Official intelligence on Iraqi weapons programs was flawed, but even with its flaws, it was not what led to the war," Pillar wrote in the upcoming issue of the journal Foreign Affairs. Instead, he asserted, the administration "went to war without requesting -- and evidently without being influenced by -- any strategic-level intelligence assessments on any aspect of Iraq."

Anyone watching the "heckuva job Brownie" hearings. Big smackdown of smilin Norm Coleman by Brownie. Brownie doesn't want to be the only scapegoat for all the Bushco eff ups for Katrina and he fought back against Coleman who was trying to make him just that...Coleman sheepishly ends with "my time is up" after Brownie gets pissed off at him.

IMO most of the reactionary trolls who post so promiscuously here are pathetic egomaniacs who are simply dying to provoke responses to their daily RNC water carrying. They are third rate intellects who have nothing original or enlightening to present about supposed "conservative" viewpoints.

At bottom they are unthinking cheerleaders for their "team", their views are biased and uninformed, and hence worthless. They cannot distinguish between having a right to ignorant speech and having something interesting to say. They clearly engage in blog-clogging and thread diversion. As such, they present no benefit to this site whatsoever.

Iamcoyote's approach seems to present a viable solution, as would a rule limiting each poster to a number of posts per thread. Violate the rule, and you're subject to banning depending on the grossness of the violation.

No. Thank you Carpe! For so clearly illustrating my point.

And interesting timing today.

Just as Libby is claiming that the VP of the US authorized him to leak classified information Porter Goss has an op-ed in the NYTimes today decrying the leaking of classified information.

Perhaps Mr. Goss needs to speak to Justice about sending some people over to speak with Big Time?

ann, while crappy is in favor of a loyalty oath, registering just makes it a little harder to be a troll on a web site and adds a measure of accountability. If only dems could sign up, then, yeah. It's also not limiting free speech to ban trolls, it's called moderating a forum. Talk Left used to limit trolls to five posts per thread: that's the owner of a web site making the rules for their web site. These trolls don't have the right to be heard in someone else's house, no matter how much they whine and cry, they are bound by the rules of the blog owner. We are all guests here. Steve has asked many times to scroll the trolls, as has other main posters. They've been ignored instead, to the delight of the trolls and GoW.

I understand that people go into the comments to have a discussion, and to correct misinformation, but I fail to understand how "I'm gonna kick your ass" and "I challenge you, blah, blah, I'm still waiting" can, in any way, be described as a discussion. All I see is crappy posting the exact same, long-ass drivel, over and over again; everyone else offering disproving links over and over again; then crappy saying the same exact thing, and the process continues until there's 100 comments by crappy and everyone else has left. That's us, being driven out of our own community, by a bunch of imbeciles that couldn't form an argument if their lives depended upon it.

Just to share a quick thought on the economy... There is a lot of pessimism out there. I think this accompanies a President who isn't polling well, but maybe moreso speaks to some of the tragic natural disasters, wars, mining accidents, and global competition (and the demise of some traditional industries, like autos) that are in our news headlines most everyday.

But with all this wall of worry stuff, I ask you why in the heck are semiconductor stocks rallying? These things are cyclical. And if a recession was coming, there is no way that they'd be rallying like they are. Remember, stocks predict the economy 6-12 months in advance. The stock market collapse in 2000 predicted the 2001 recession. The 2002 stock bottom and subsequent rally predicted strong GDP growth in the future.

So while stocks have mostly been moving sideways since 2004, they have actually been consolidating their gains and letting earnings catch up with valuations. (aka, PE multiples). We could soon see a new leg up in the market if the PE multiple expanded.

Just a thought.

And remember, if you do scroll past a troll, remember to smile and give a hug. Cuz trolls need love, too.

ann, I wasn't waiting for the talking points, but looking to see what other opinions were out there on this subject as well as other topics. I happen to respond to what was out there (which I had accurately predicted-now if only I was as good at picking winning lottery numbers). I wasn't trying to pat myself on the back here either. Just frustrated as I feel the level of discussion has declined at this site. Plus, I have some free time today to really catch up with my blog reading in real time. euzious makes a good point, free speech is not the same as ignorant speech. iamcoyote offers up an interesting proposal/solution.

Anyway, I agree with your post above as I had linked to it in my first comment through the msnbc site (same pincus story). Anyway, it's more factual proof of what many here already knew. Interesting things to me from that article.
-The Novak info at the end where it states that Pillars name was first "outed" by him as being a critic of the administration. Isn't it amazing how Bob always gets all these names...he's got some heckuva source there. When will the Pillars swiftboating occur in earnest?
-Unless the cable and television media cover this and they most certainly should, not much will come of it...and even if it does get the coverage it should, I bet 36% will still be true believers.

pupyboy,
I left you out of my original comment because you are a troll of a different color. Now, I prolly disagree with you on 99% of what you believe and say, and I mainly feel really sorry for you because I think you are incredibly shallow and materiali$tic. But at least you're not a threadbot comment hog every single day, every single thread, every single time you post here.

To my delight?

My "delight" is intellectually stimulating discussion. The GOP has rendered that impossible. They actually rip on the "reality based community." They send out their minions to lie, smear, and pugilize. They do it here, they do it on cable news and sunday talk, they do it on the radio. To be really blunt, we are the Jews in their 1930s Germany. That's how they view us. We aren't to be debated, we are to be destroyed. Like the Nazis, they have the small liability of being metaphysically divorced from the truth, so their delusional diatribes are exponentially more venomous, as they strive to convince themselves of the wicked righteousness of their cause.

I'm very highly educated (doctorate). I'd rather come online to discuss economic theory and quantum physics. Unfortunately, BushCorp's minions prefer war zones to academia (as long as they don't actually have to serve in said war zones). They care not for truth, they care only about domination. They want the rational, decent, articulate members of this community to cease to exist so they can revel in their cultish glory.

I think its important that you understand the nature of the enemy. They aren't "conservatives." They are reactionaries. They would have cheered Hitler in their loudest tones. They are intellectually insecure, so they do the bidding of their Rovian cult leaders without regard to the negative effect upon their own lives. And rest assured, they will not give in until they have eliminated us or have been beaten down. Such is the way of a cult.

They want the rational, decent, articulate members of this community to cease to exist so they can revel in their cultish glory.

And your typical reaction to them gives them exactly that.

Don't give them what they want. What you just wrote is immensly more stimulating than your typical foul-mouthed bravado.

GoW

Understanding the nature of one's political enemies doesn't require that we sink to their primordial level. We are currently caught in their muck (not to be construed as meaning our wrong-wing wregular muckdog) and have to work up a successful solution to extract ourselves before we sink forever. As a highly-educated person, you have resources to draw upon that they probably don't. Let's use them for the benefit of the greater good - and leave the street-brawling in the gutter where it belongs.

Sorry, emal, didn't see that you had posted the same link! Think they'll give him the Clarke treatment as well?

As for the trolls, they have become painfully predictable. And I've noticed a lot fewer posts from the regular folks lately who would actually like to have a reasonable discussion. Who wants to try to get a word in edgewise when there's a testosterone flame war raging? Whether it's carpe's constant "Plame wasn't covert," nonsense or GOW's threats of physical violence - are you guys going to meet up somewhere? because threats of physical violence on an essentially anonymous web site are pretty silly - it's just not very interesting.

Group hug?

What a great analogy pessimist, but I see it alittle different.

Curly: "I can't see! I can't see!" The American people.

Moe and Larry : "What'sa matter?" The President and Congress.

Curly: "I got my eyes closed." Again, the American people.

The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
- Dante

and fwiw, GOW is a bit, um, poetic at times, but i think he often cuts through to essential points that could use a bright, maybe blinding light on them. OTOH, where does it get us? i have no time to comment from all the scrolling!

The other night on the upper west side I saw hitchens, bob graham, and some others debate "were we misled" into iraqnam. when hitch started an answer with "Leon Klinghoffer . ." I wanted to scream "way to pander to us jews. we're not buying it, you raging hypocrite!" but all i could squeeze out was "fuck you!" (in the classic brooklyn inflection). so i sympathize with GOW.

muckdog,

See, there's a post worthy of discussion.

Here's where my economic concerns lie (and I'm a capitalist pig, so I am concerned.)

First, I'm concerned about these trade deficits. They are unsustainable. As are the budget deficits.

Next, I'm concerned about these tax cuts, because I don't see them as stimulative. If you want to stimulate the economy, give more money to working people who will actually spend it, not to the uber rich who will stowe it away. The speed of money is very important to the economy, and to corporate health. "Supply side" economics is voodoo. Its irrational. It ruins the middle class. No thanks, Mexico can keep Mexico's economic structure. The strength of the middle class is of the utmost importance, and the fact is that the middle class is being weakened by these bullshit, disproven, reckless economic theories.

Furthermore, a lot of this "free trade" is really nothing more than labor arbitrage. Again, this is not sustainable. Beyond the economic implications and environmental degradation, political instability is quite possible as the current system serves to further consolidate resources in the elites of developing countries and their international financiers while causing displacement and defacto serfdom for the masses. This is not a good arrangement. This is not the promise that the promoters of free trade preach with biblical certainty. This is a recipie for terrorism and socialist revolution.

At some point, and preferably soon, economic justice is going to have to be addressed or we are going to find ourselves embroiled in a hideous shitstorm. Its not just some "bleeding heart" motivation, its good long term business sense. You cannot treat the majority of the world's population like dogs and expect them to heel forever.

ann, no apologies necessary, glad you thought the article was interesting too. I guess the swiftboating will depend on the level of exposure the story makes in media? If Pillar makes it onto some news shows and the story makes it's way into the cable/tv shows, perhaps the swiftboating will be more severe. We'll see. What do you think will happen with the latest revelation and the latest person to affirm what was already known? Plus, do you think we will ever see Phase II of the Senate Intelligence committee's investigation into the politicization of pre-war intelligence?

GOW, let's not forget the massive trade deficits that have a occurred along with the Borrow and Squander Bushco economic policy. No true conservative could agree with this irresponsibility, unless you really wanted to "drown gov't in a bathtub".

Perhaps Norquist et al should wake up to the fact that a drowned government cannot protect them and their precious assets from Osama.

Yeah, let's kill the goddamn government. That'll show our enemies!

What do you think will happen with the latest revelation and the latest person to affirm what was already known? Plus, do you think we will ever see Phase II of the Senate Intelligence committee's investigation into the politicization of pre-war intelligence?

The talking points on this seem to be along the line of "why we're in Iraq and what got us there are unimportant. we need to focus on making the war a success." Sadly, I'm hearing this from both sides. I think we've reached a point where everyone accepts that fact that the we were misled about this war, but what is the correct response to that? Do they just get a pass because they control the House and Senate as well?

Bush/Cheney have taken the incompetent CEO defense (see: Enron) and claimed that they really believed that Hussein was a threat and while there weren't any WMDs, they can't be faulted because they trusted bad intelligence. Just like Ken Lay claims he's too dense to understand a balance sheet.

As for how the WH will treat Pillar.....that remains to be seen, but I'm sure it won't be pretty.

GoW, you've said often enough that you delighted in "fuckfuckity cuntfuck," but maybe I misunderstood your meaning.

Oh, well, I had to try. Sorry all, for making this an issue, I'll shut up now.

Well, GOW, we're going to disagree on many of your economic beliefs. But in general, economics is cyclical. We have expansions and contractions. My point of view is that investors who are aware of economic cycles can maximize their returns over a long period of time. That's important to anyone planning on retiring, saving for college, etc.

Emal might call this $hallow or materiali$tic, but I call it making the best of the cards dealt to me. I don't believe it is at all time-consuming. For those who read my blog, you may know that I only dedicate a few of my daily bullet points on money matters. I have a "Black Box" that I programmed to identify intermediate turns in the market that I use. Takes a few minutes to run at night while I'm changing into my workout clothes.

Regarding GOW's points...

First, I'm concerned about these trade deficits. They are unsustainable. As are the budget deficits.

Trade deficits are booming because we use a ton of oil that has skyrocketed in price. In addition, the American consumer is alive and well and buying up cheap foreign goods.

The budget deficit is unsustainable, but I don't see either political party willing to address it. I think the deficit problem is more acute in states like CA, where structural deficits are now the norm.

Next, I'm concerned about these tax cuts, because I don't see them as stimulative.

Well, GDP was over 3% for 13 consecutive quarters. All tax cuts are stimulative. The middle class has benefitted. Unemployment remains low compared to historical standards. Supply-side economics does work. Perhaps there are other tactics that would fare better (or worse), but to say supply-side doesn't work is wrong.

Furthermore, a lot of this "free trade" is really nothing more than labor arbitrage.

Actually, wages are rising in countries we outsource work to. Living conditions are improving. Their purchasing power is increasing. YUM went global and their business is booming. SBUX is next. Car companies want to sell SUVs to the Chinese. Etc.

At some point, and preferably soon, economic justice is going to have to be addressed

It's happening to us, the US. We've been overpayed and enjoying the world's resources as our own for half a century. Now our wages and lifestyle will "regress to the mean" as other countries learn that they're just as smart and capable as Americans. That's just the evolution of nations. Happens again and again, and is well documented in the book Empire of Debt.

Europe no longer has a GDP. Our GDP is in the low single digits. The GDP of some of the emerging market countries is in the high single digits. Their economies are growing faster than ours now.

Just some thoughts.

Pss, nc ntrdctn t ‘blndnss.’ t th vry lst, Crly knw th src f hs blndnss: h hd hs ys clsd. Hwvr, w hv srs bstrct blndnss t scl Trth. nd w nt th bsnc f trth n r Gdlss ldrs. t s mprtv t ndrstnd tht ‘Gdlssnss’ nclds mmbrs f th Chrstn Chrch lngsd vryn ls. (Ths cnncts wth n f yr pst psts cncrnng 'Chrstn' hypcrt.) f y wll, pls rd crflly Gd’s mssg fr r crrnt tm, wrttn rnd 600 BC: (prnthss mn nd lft t sm vrss n ths chptr fr brvty; ls, t s bynd th scp f ths wrk t xpln hw knw tht Jhvh wrt ths fr r tm. Yt, y my b bl t s why n n f th blw vrss),

Hs 4:
1. Hr th wrd f th LRD, y chldrn f srl, (Jhvh s spkng t th ‘Chrstn/Jwsh chrch grs): fr th LRD hth cntrvrsy wth th nhbtnts f th lnd, bcs thr s n trth, nr mrcy, nr knwldg f Gd n th lnd.

(Jhvh thn shws th cnsqnc f r fls gspls/tchngs wthn th chrchs by ddng blw. Vw th blw wth r crprt cbl n ffc; nvrthlss, th cbl s pctr f r rhd vtrs nd thr crprt gds.)

2. By swrng, nd lyng, nd kllng, nd stlng, nd cmmttng dltry, thy brk t, nd bld tchth bld. 3. Thrfr shll th lnd mrn, nd vry n tht dwllth thrn shll lngsh, wth th bsts f th fld, nd wth th fwls f hvn; y, th fshs f th s ls shll b tkn wy.

7. s thy wr ncrsd, (hr Jhvh s spkng bt mtrl wlth) s thy snnd (vl) gnst m: thrfr wll chng thr glry nt shm. 8. Thy t p th sn (vl) f my ppl, nd thy st thr hrt n thr nqty. 9. nd thr shll b, lk ppl (nsvd chrch mmbrs), lk prst (nsvd chrch ldrs): nd wll pnsh thm fr thr wys, nd rwrd thm thr dngs. 10. Fr thy shll t, nd nt hv ngh: thy shll cmmt whrdm, (sprtl) nd shll nt ncrs: bcs thy hv lft ff t tk hd t th LRD. 11. Whrdm (rblln gnst Gd’s Lw) nd wn (mn’s ds) nd nw wn tk wy th hrt. 12. My ppl sk cnsl t thr stcks, nd thr stff dclrth nt thm: fr th sprt f whrdms hth csd thm t rr, nd thy hv gn whrng frm ndr thr Gd. 13. Thy scrfc pn th tps f th mntns, nd brn ncns pn th hlls, ndr ks nd pplrs nd lms, bcs th shdw thrf s gd: thrfr yr dghtrs shll cmmt whrdm, nd yr spss shll cmmt dltry. 14. wll nt pnsh yr dghtrs whn thy cmmt whrdm, nr yr spss whn thy cmmt dltry: fr thmslvs r sprtd wth whrs, nd thy scrfc wth hrlts: thrfr th ppl tht dth nt ndrstnd shll fll. (Hr Jhvh grps ll th psd ‘Chrstns’ wth ll thr wrldly rlgns nd mn-md phlsphs.)

Smmry: Wtht r tr Chrstn nstttn, s dsgnd by r frfthrs, nstttnl chs rgns. ssntlly, ppl mrly d wht s rght n thr ys; nd th rsd f ‘rght’ s prppd by r nnt chrctr flw f vl. Wtht Gd, w r blnd; nd w r fr mr blnd thn pr l Crly, fr h cld pn hs ys. W, n th thr hnd, (rtchtng p n ntch n th lvl f bstrct rsnng) r cmpltly nbl t pn r sprtl ys. n f th mddl nms f ll tr Chrstns s bttr/pssmstc. Pssmstc fr nn f s hv th blty f Crly. Gd ds ll th wrk fr ths tht H chs bfr tm bgn.

Just to add a bit a balance to scout's preaching:

This article is written in praise of Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, or whatever you want to call him. I must first make it clear that I am not here claiming ontological status for the Devil; that is, I am not claiming that he exists in the sense that you and I exist. I am quite serious on a symbolic level in what I write but my statements praising the Devil and attacking Christianity, God, and Jesus are not to taken as implying the real existence of any of these supposed beings. The only one of these that I think one could reasonably believe actually existed is Jesus. It seems probable that there was a human being who was a political and religious leader at the time though it seems to me to be absurd to believe claims about his origin or divine nature. My praise of the Devil is not entirely (though it is mostly) serious, and it is to be taken on a purely symbolic level. My goal is to bring out the values and perspective of the Christian tradition and to demonstrate how it is fundamentally at odds with the values held by myself and all extropians and with the perspective that we share.

The Devil - Lucifer - is a force for good (where I define 'good' simply as that which I value, not wanting to imply any universal validity or necessity to the orientation). 'Lucifer' means 'light-bringer' and this should begin to clue us in to his symbolic importance. The story is that God threw Lucifer out of Heaven because Lucifer had started to question God and was spreading dissension among the angels. We must remember that this story is told from the point of view of the Godists (if I may coin a term) and not from that of the Luciferians (I will use this term to distinguish us from the official Satanists with whom I have fundamental differences). The truth may just as easily be that Lucifer resigned from heaven.

God, being the well-documented sadist that he is, no doubt wanted to keep Lucifer around so that he could punish him and try to get him back under his (God's) power. Probably what really happened was that Lucifer came to hate God's kingdom, his sadism, his demand for slavish conformity and obedience, his psychotic rage at any display of independent thinking and behavior. Lucifer realized that he could never fully think for himself and could certainly not act on his independent thinking so long as he was under God's control. Therefore he left Heaven, that terrible spiritual-State ruled by the cosmic sadist Jehovah, and was accompanied by some of the angels who had had enough courage to question God's authority and his value-perspective.

Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, of intelligence, of critical thought. He stands against the dogma of God and all other dogmas. He stands for the exploration of new ideas and new perspectives in the pursuit of truth.

God demands that we believe everything that he tells us, and that we do everything that he says without questioning. Destroy a tribe including the women, children and animals down to last one? (Joshua 6.21). Why of course. Wait a minute, this doesn't seem very nice. SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTIONING. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THE SAME UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS. Yes Sir, God Sir, whatever you say. See, here I am burning their books, pulling out their nails, torturing them for questioning Church dogma, banning the use of anaesthetic in child-bearing (since the pain is their just punishment for the acts of Adam and Eve). Help! I thought an improper thought! Help me to blind my mind God, help me to not see what my reason tells me. Let me repress thoughts of sexual desire, doubts about you and your orders, feelings of tolerance.

The more that I read and learn the more that I am convinced that to be a good citizen I absolutely must rise up against this insanity.

This means do everything that my body can physically handle to educate everyone who I come into contact with. Engage. Engage. Engage.

Doctors, Nurses, Grocery Clerks, Friends, Family, Neighbors, Insurance Agents, Vendors, Sales People, Whoever.... Everyone who I come into contact with.

There is no educating the trolls. Their minds are made up [corrupted and brainwashed] so it is absolutely no benefit to anyone to attempt this education. I tried, at first, because I really thought that these were reasonable people, just like others who I meet with, in person, on a daily basis.

They are not reasonable. I come here to this blog and other places where I read, to learn. It is only through keeping myself fully informed that I can be of greater use to my self, family, community and Country.

That being said, I too come to breaking points with the trolls. Because I am now fully aware of what a dire Constitutional Crises that we are in. Times are desperate.

Fascism is mostly an economic system and the current economic system that this Country is in is breaking over into that state. It is clear and evident to anyone who opens their eyes.

And GoW, the goal has always been to "break the government." Break it to prove that it does not work so that everything can be privatized. Then the fuedal society will be complete and the Fascist rule will go on forever.

Our Congress is waking up; they are doing so because the people - the CITIZENS - are waking up and calling for change and accountability. The more that we educate, the more that people will wake up and demand this accountability.

I have immense hope. I do not think that the blood of our Forefathers was lost in vain. They fought and it is up to each of us to remind people of simple civics and what each of our responsibilities are.

WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. They are not leaders they are Representatives. It is time for us to educate those who will listen; the trolls do not fall into that category.

I met with someone on a business matter recently, I no longer am "afraid" to speak politics with people. It is no longer an off-limits or taboo subject, because I understand now what it means to be a citizen. Although this person was a "staunch Republican" and it was the first time that I had met him, I told him the truth about the prescription drug bill - he did not know how it came to be or where the problems with it were. His eyes were opened and he said he would research it and I believe it made a difference.

One conversation, one person's eyes opened. If each of us do this, we can make a change and have an impact.

This will never happen with the trolls.

In other news, the WH is doing everything in their power to make certain that votes will not be counted especially by residents of NOLA.

iamcoyote

I apologize. I meant no insult.

(: Tom :)

You are definitely right. No need to settle for or

Ellie Mae Clampett....YOWSA!!!!

The budget deficit is unsustainable, but I don't see either political party willing to address it. I think the deficit problem is more acute in states like CA, where structural deficits are now the norm.

*****

Clinton addressed it pretty well.

Puppyboy sez,
The middle class has benefitted. Unemployment remains low compared to historical standards.

You insinuate here that because unemployment is low, that somehow the middle class is benefitting...amazing. How incredibly arrogant of you that just because as you claim unemployment is relatively low that the middle class is doing well. Yes, middle class people should just stfu and be grateful for having jobs! Middle class people should just realize their place in society and a job means you are benefitting here. Yes who cares if their job's wages haven't kept place with inflation, their job's benefits packages have been cut, that their job no longer offers a health insurance benefit/or it cost significantly more if they do have it, and their job's pension plans are no longer there for them when they need them. Yes those ingrates (aka the middle class) bitchin and moaning because you see, they should stfu because unemployment rates are relatively low and according to the inevestor/wealthy class citizens, a job is the only thing that a lowly middle class person needs. Somehow a job is now defined as a middle class benefit by the upper class.

And I didn't even get into the fact that many people are underemployed or have left the work force and aren't counted in the numbers.

...the American consumer is alive and well and buying up cheap foreign goods.

Yes, while racking up historically high amounts of debt on credit cards and you think that is a good thing.

And yes puppy, you may try and spin it that you are just making the best of the situation dealt you. I don't begrudge you that success at all. But imho with that succe$$ comes some innate responsibility to give back to society especially to the least amongst us, but you show absolutely no concern or empathy for anyone outside of yourself. The only thing you appear to value as much as your money is yourself...and that is the true reason I call you shallow and materiali$tic and why I fee sorry for you. You have been fortunate and given many things, too bad you don't feel any sense of responsibility to give back.

Daryl, thanks, I know you were trying to lighten things up, and that goes a long way...

The problem with guys like muck is that they lack imagination. They fail to see third ways.

In muck's world, either capital or labor has to "win" in a zero sum game. In reality, the two mutually benefitting one another is a more rational, profitable and ideal situation. However, that arrangement takes an imaginative, long-term worldview, so the short-termers never give it a thought.

Muck likes to talk about cycles. Well, some cycles, like industrialist exploitation leading to revolution leading to governmental exploitation leading to revolution leading back to the start of the cycle can be prevented by longer-term thinking that, for lack of a better word, "entrenches" a strong, vibrant middle class. Simply put, the huge extremes in wealth and power are unhealthy for a prosperous and politically responsible society. Unfettered "capitalism" is as extreme a paradigm as marxist communism. Properly regulated capitalism is the only workable solution, and the most natural one at that.

In an unprecedented move, the Bush Administration, who routinely awards incompetence, has fired their Chief Programmer of the Internal Computer Management System.

Joe Peobody, ICMS Programmer, was led out of the basement of the WhiteHouse this morning by Secret Service with notice that his personal belongings would be sent to him at a later date.

Internal reports indicate that the Program which operates the chip implant for Apologists, Scapegoats and General Lying Administration Officials malfunctioned leading to a massive stream of "bean-spilling."

There were no plans in place for such a devastating computer malfunction and the WH reports that it is puzzled by the sudden breach of truth.

Scott McClellan has been placed in quarantine and will not be allowed to speak to the press until it is confirmed that his chip has suffered no damage.

I agree GoW

I would hardly classify the Gilded Age as a cycle. That maybe the closest this country ever came to a corporate monarchy. Until now.

Where's a Roosevelt (either one) when you need him?

Clinton addressed it pretty well.

Do you have specific measures Clinton took to balance the budget? I'd like to see your list of "how he did it."

Here's mine:

Thanks to the internet stock bubble that created extreme wage inflation in technology jobs, people converting to Roth IRAs and paying taxes on their 401k/IRA immediately in the late 90's instead of later in life when they actually retire, and Rubin financing long-term debt with short-term bonds (which will probably come back and haunt us later). Clinton also cut taxes on capital gains, and that helped bring in more revenue.

Regarding the middle class in the US, things are quite fine. No, they don't have a plasma TV in every room just yet. And maybe they can only go to Hawaii every other year and have to suffer at Disneyworld in years they can't make it to the island state. Perhaps it's tough for them to fuel up their 2 SUVs with higher energy prices, and maybe they have to cut back on the nightly trips out to Outback and Chili's to fund the heating bills this past winter. Maybe they have to cut back on multiple daily runs to Starbucks for $3 coffee and slowdown on trips to the Cheesecake Factory for dessert.

I know. Your answer is that they're paying for it all on plastic. It's Bush's fault they can't control their appetite for spending beyond their means. Right?

It's Bush's fault they can't control their appetite for spending beyond their means.

With Bush as main borrow and squanderer racking up enormous long term debt with the gov't credit card and keeping some spending off the books, what kind of example is he setting for "the children".

Muck, bush is just leading by example. Spending beyond his (the country's)needs.

need's=means

I know. Your answer is that they're paying for it all on plastic. It's Bush's fault they can't control their appetite for spending beyond their means. Right?
Posted by muckdog at February 10, 2006 11:28 AM

*****

BUZZZZZZZZ.

The correct answer is that their wages are stagnant while necessities like housing, energy and health care are skyrocketing.

Regarding the middle class in the US, things are quite fine. No, they don't have a plasma TV in every room just yet. And maybe they can only go to Hawaii every other year and have to suffer at Disneyworld in years they can't make it to the island state. Perhaps it's tough for them to fuel up their 2 SUVs with higher energy prices, and maybe they have to cut back on the nightly trips out to Outback and Chili's to fund the heating bills this past winter. Maybe they have to cut back on multiple daily runs to Starbucks for $3 coffee and slowdown on trips to the Cheesecake Factory for dessert.

I'm pretty sure my salary puts me in the middle class but I certainly can't afford any of that. And believe me, I'm not living large in other areas, either.

So let's see...I think around August, the Dems should show a commercial with the flood waters of New Orleans, and caption "August 2005", then some footage of New Orleans with a caption "New Orleans Now" and then have the voice over "Have the Republicans reached their goal of drowning the government in a bathtub? Vote for the Democrats. They believe in government serving the people."

muck, I know you don't want to go there but we need to raise taxes on somebody! The middle class cannot sustain itself, we have bent to the point of total collapse. That leaves only one alternative, tax the ones not paying, the rich and corporate America.

Nobody seems willing to answer the question on "How did he do it?" regarding Clinton having a surplus. Do you folks not know?

With btbb's raising taxes idea, that's an idea that's out there at the federal, state, and local levels. Democrats aren't being honest about who'd have to pay the increase in taxes, though. They need a way to tax the middle class more, because there just isn't enough money at the top brackets to run the country very long.

That's why they're (Democrats and GOP) quick to raise alcohol and cigarette taxes, and to increase gambling (and taxes on gambling revenues). Now they want to increase gasoline taxes, too. That's how taxes are raised on the poor and middle class.

I'd be more for use and consumption taxes. Lets get rid of dividend and capital gain taxes completely, because that's a collar on economic growth. Instead, lets replace that tax revenue at the consumption level. Toll roads. Sales taxes. Fuel taxes. Maybe DMV registration paid by miles driven. Etc.

One idea that seems to be gaining traction regarding your health care comments, is that companies are now giving retirees and workers stipends to pay for health care. Instead of the company shouldering the costs directly, they're giving retirees/workers an amount each month to spend however they see fit. I think one major company recent said "$1000" a month to spend however retirees like.

If I don't get a chance to comment further, everyone have a good weekend. I believe the country celebrates Honest Abe's birthday somewhere in the days ahead, so make it a good one! And remember, new episode of Battlestar Galactica tonight...

Sharon, take a look at this photo essay on Dkos. Updated: Bush Photo Essay of 9/11 & Katrina

It was a rather harsh reminder to me of everything that went on during Katrina. We see more images of the WTC attack than we do of Katrina so we forget. I think your ad idea is a good one.

I'm pretty sure my salary puts me in the middle class but I certainly can't afford any of that. And believe me, I'm not living large in other areas, either.

I heard a commentator said that a married couple making $60K is "middle class." I don't know what the number would be for a single person. In the $40K range somewhere? Maybe the upper end of the range would be defined by the Roth IRA contribution limits. (For single, you can only contribute if you make less than $100K, and for married couples that number is $150K). Something like that.

There's more to life than money. The most important thing is enjoying what you do. Hopefully that brings with it a decent salary, but certainly not in all cases. I think that all folks should do the best they can do in saving and investing over their lifetimes, though. That's how folks get out of the daily grind (eventually).

pessimist, I'm just waiting for the ever predictable "why has no one taken me up on my challenge? It's because you're all whimps and know I am right" post any minute now....it's bound to come.
Posted by emal at February 10, 2006 08:03 AM

WE HAVE A WINNAH!

Nobody seems willing to answer the question on "How did he do it?" regarding Clinton having a surplus. Do you folks not know?

Posted by muckdog at February 10, 2006 01:20 PM

Why not tax the American companies that make hugeass profits using cheap labor overseas, but they use the Cayman Islands as their address so don't pay much in the way of taxes?

There's more to life than money. muckdog

Hell just froze over.

There's more to life than money. muckdog

Hell just froze over. ann

And a pig just went flying ouside by my window ann!

The fun part will be trying to get mucky to think of something "more to life." Kinda like asking Bush what mistakes he has made, don'tcha think?

Cyt, jst rd yr wrk; 'll pst fw ds lttl ltr. Y hv fw tms tht r ndd n trgt. Hwvr, 'll pnt t jst vr s smll prdgm shft. nd wnt t d ths wthn th 'blndnss' prmtrs st-p by Pss.

The fun part will be trying to get mucky to think of something "more to life."

He got pretty excited about the Xbox. And Battlestar Gallactica. I guess by "more to life" he means the things that money buys him.

ann, you're right!

And muck'ss into being a vegan, for which I credit him, being way too lazy myself, though I like the idea.

darn typoss

Actually, I'm waiting for the Playstation 3. Just to compare features and such. On a related note, I think video game stocks will struggle until these new gaming platforms are readily available. But I like Electronic Arts (ERTS) whenever that happens. I don't own it now, though.

Not only am I a vegan, but I mostly carpool/telecommute/mass transit for work.

Money is green.
Veggies are green.
The environment is green.

Kermit is wrong. It is easy being green!

Cyt, Pss, nd rdrs tht tnd t vw r rlng cbl s tr Chrstns. Blw hv st n plc Bblcl rspnss t Cyt’s pnts. Sm spprt hs thss, whl thrs cntr. Pss, pls nt th vrss tht spk drctly t Gd ntntnlly blndng th nsvd s t th trth f th Bbl. wll dd mr bt Gd’s pstn n ths cncpt t th cnclsn. wll pt my wrds n prnthss nly t dd clrty. wld sggst tht rdrs wh bgn t s cnnctn btwn th srrl vrydy pthy nd scl blndnss t crrnt vnts t rd th Bbl crflly. ls, hv scnnd th nt lkng fr thrs tht ndrstnd th Bbl; thr r lmst nn. Hwvr, t th bgnnr lvl f ndrstndng, hv cm crss n st tht ndrstnds th Trth f th Bbl, nd ls ffrs mny rsrcs fr nrvlng mch f th Bbl, fmlyrd.cm. (Pls b dvsd tht th fmly rd ppl d nt wrt nr tlk s y hv sn m d n pst psts. Ths crtnly ds nt dtrct frm thm ndrstndng th trth f th Bbl.)

Cyt, th nly wrd tht y sd tht m nsr f s, ‘xtrpns.’ ssm th mnng t b srchng twrd fr mnng nd ndrstndng. ls, t s crtcl t rd th vrss thghtflly; vn Lcfr knws th Bbl, lbt nt sprtlly.

Frst, th Bbl ws wrttn by Gd thrgh hs ppl; lt m gv jst n vrs t st th frm:
2 Ptr 1:21. ‘Fr th prphcy cm nt n ld tm by th wll f mn: bt hly mn f Gd spk s thy wr mvd by th Hly Ghst.’

Blw r th vrss tht shw sm nsghts n Lcfr/Stn/dvl nd hs mtvtn.

sh 14: 12. ‘Hw rt th flln frm hvn, Lcfr, sn f th mrnng! hw rt th ct dwn t th grnd, whch ddst wkn th ntns! 13. Fr th hst sd n thn hrt, wll scnd nt hvn, wll xlt my thrn bv th strs f Gd: wll st ls pn th mnt f th cngrgtn, n th sds f th nrth: 14. wll scnd bv th hghts f th clds; wll b lk th mst Hgh.’ (Prd ws Lcfr’s mtvtn. Whn mn rblld gnst Jhvh, Stn bcm r rlr. Wtht Gd, mn s wknd.)

2 Crnthns 11:3. ‘Fr sch r fls pstls, dctfl wrkrs, trnsfrmng thmslvs nt th pstls f Chrst. 14. nd n mrvl; fr Stn hmslf s trnsfrmd nt n ngl f lght. 15. Thrfr t s n grt thng f hs mnstrs ls b trnsfrmd s th mnstrs f rghtsnss; whs nd shll b ccrdng t thr wrks.’ (Gd s spkng bt th chrch ldrs f r dy, n prtclr. Th chrch ldrs wrk fr Stn, bt thnk thy r tr t th Bbl.)

Lk 4:5. ‘nd th dvl, tkng hm (Jss) p nt n hgh mntn, shwd nt hm ll th kngdms f th wrld n mmnt f tm.
6. nd th dvl sd nt hm, ll ths pwr wll gv th, nd th glry f thm: fr tht s dlvrd nt m; nd t whmsvr wll gv t.’ (Hr w nt th tr rlr f r wrld.)

Mtthw 24:14. ‘nd ths gspl f th kngdm shll b prchd n ll th wrld fr wtnss nt ll ntns; nd thn shll th nd cm. 15. Whn y thrfr shll s th bmntn f dsltn, spkn f by Dnl th prpht, stnd n th hly plc, whs rdth, lt hm ndrstnd: 16. Thn lt thm whch b n Jd fl nt th mntns:’ (Stn s n cntrl f chrch phlsphy n r dy; Jhvh wnts ll tr blvrs t lv th chrch.)

2 Thsslnns 2:1. ‘Nw w bsch y, brthrn, by th cmng f r Lrd Jss Chrst, nd by r gthrng tgthr nt hm, 2. Tht y b nt sn shkn n mnd, r b trbld, nthr by sprt, nr by wrd, nr by lttr s frm s, s tht th dy f Chrst s t hnd. 3. Lt n mn dcv y by ny mns: fr tht dy shll nt cm, xcpt thr cm fllng wy frst, ( fllng wy frm th trth f th Bbl) nd tht mn f sn b rvld, (Lcfr) th sn f prdtn; 4. Wh ppsth nd xltth hmslf bv ll tht s clld Gd, r tht s wrshppd; s tht h s Gd sttth n th tmpl f Gd, shwng hmslf tht h s Gd.’ (Ths cnncts wth th bv sh 14.)

Blw r jst fw vrss tht shw Gd hdng th trth f th Bbl frm ll bt th lct/chsn. Ths cnncts t Pss’ blndnss prncpl, bt s scl frc. Th mssg f ths vrss r scttrd ll vr th Bbl. Blw r jst fw.

Mtthw 13:10. ‘nd th dscpls cm, nd sd nt hm, Why spkst th nt thm n prbls? 11. H nswrd nd sd nt thm, Bcs t s gvn nt y t knw th mystrs f th kngdm f hvn, bt t thm t s nt gvn. 12. Fr whsvr hth, t hm shll b gvn, nd h shll hv mr bndnc: bt whsvr hth nt, frm hm shll b tkn wy vn tht h hth. 13. Thrfr spk t thm n prbls: bcs thy sng s nt; nd hrng thy hr nt, nthr d thy ndrstnd.’

sh 6:9. ‘nd h sd, G, nd tll ths ppl, Hr y ndd, bt ndrstnd nt; nd s y ndd, bt prcv nt. 10. Mk th hrt f ths ppl ft, nd mk thr rs hvy, nd sht thr ys; lst thy s wth thr ys, nd hr wth thr rs, nd ndrstnd wth thr hrt, nd cnvrt, nd b hld.
sh 29:7. Wht thn? srl hth nt btnd tht whch h skth fr; bt th lctn hth btnd t, nd th rst wr blndd 8. ccrdng s t s wrttn, Gd hth gvn thm th sprt f slmbr, ys tht thy shld nt s, nd rs tht thy shld nt hr; nt ths dy.’

13. ‘Whrfr th Lrd sd, Frsmch s ths ppl drw nr m wth thr mth, nd wth thr lps d hnr m, bt hv rmvd thr hrt fr frm m, nd thr fr twrd m s tght by th prcpt f mn: 14. Thrfr, bhld, wll prcd t d mrvlls wrk mng ths ppl, vn mrvlls wrk nd wndr: fr th wsdm f thr ws mn shll prsh, nd th ndrstndng f thr prdnt mn shll b hd.’ (Prdnt mn r ths tr blvrs; ‘ws’ mn r ths wth mn-md ntns.)

zkl 12:2. ‘Sn f mn, th dwllst n th mdst f rblls hs, whch hv ys t s, nd s nt; thy hv rs t hr, nd hr nt: fr thy r rblls hs.’

Lk 8:10. ‘nd h (Jhvh/Jss sd t hs stdnts/tr blvrs) sd, nt y t s gvn t knw th mystrs f th kngdm f Gd: bt t thrs n prbls; tht sng thy mght nt s, nd hrng thy mght nt ndrstnd.’

Jhn 12:40. ‘H hth blndd thr ys, nd hrdnd thr hrt; tht thy shld nt s wth thr ys, nr ndrstnd wth thr hrt, nd b cnvrtd, nd shld hl thm. 41. Ths thngs sd ss, whn h sw hs glry, nd spk f hm. 42. Nvrthlss mng th chf rlrs ls mny blvd n hm; bt bcs f th Phrss thy dd nt cnfss hm, lst thy shld b pt t f th syngg: 43. Fr thy lvd th prs f mn mr thn th prs f Gd.’ (Hr nt th prblm f th nsvd: thy wll nly trst mn-md ntns, fr slf gn, f crs.)

Cyt, blw pnts t Gd ndrstndng mn frm tsd f tm; ts nt qstn f ‘nncnt chld.’ Nt n mn s ‘gd.’

Pslms 58:3. ‘Th wckd r strngd frm th wmb: thy g stry s sn s thy b brn, spkng ls.’

Rmns 3:10. ‘s t s wrttn, Thr s nn rghts, n, nt n: 11. Thr s nn tht ndrstndth, thr s nn tht skth ftr Gd. 12. Thy r ll gn t f th wy, thy r tgthr bcm nprftbl; thr s nn tht dth gd, n, nt n. 13. Thr thrt s n pn splchr; wth thr tngs thy hv sd dct; th psn f sps s ndr thr lps: 14. Whs mth s fll f crsng nd bttrnss: 15. Thr ft r swft t shd bld: 16. Dstrctn nd msry r n thr wys: 17. nd th wy f pc hv thy nt knwn: 18. Thr s n fr f Gd bfr thr ys.’

Jhn 8:41. ‘Y d th dds f yr fthr, (Jss, spkng t th chrch rlrs). Thn sd thy t hm, W b nt brn f frnctn; w hv n Fthr, vn Gd. 42. Jss sd nt thm, f Gd wr yr Fthr, y wld lv m: fr prcdd frth nd cm frm Gd; nthr cm f myslf, bt h snt m. 43. Why d y nt ndrstnd my spch? vn bcs y cnnt hr my wrd. 44. Y r f yr fthr th dvl, nd th lsts f yr fthr y wll d. H ws mrdrr frm th bgnnng, nd bd nt n th trth, bcs thr s n trth n hm. Whn h spkth l, h spkth f hs wn: fr h s lr, nd th fthr f t. 45. nd bcs tll y th trth, y blv m nt. 46. Whch f y cnvncth m f sn? nd f sy th trth, why d y nt blv m? 47. H tht s f Gd hrth Gd's wrds: y thrfr hr thm nt, bcs y r nt f Gd. ‘

Stn’s mtvtn fr rblln s th sm s rs: prd. H wntd t wrt hs wn prgrm nd b lk Gd. Mn, lk hs fthr, Lcfr, wnts t wrt hs wn prgrm nd b Gd.

Gd ntntnlly hds th trth bt th Bbl frm th nsvd. Ths s bcs H nly svd ths tht H wntd; th svd/chsn wr slctd by Gd bfr tm bgn. Nvrthlss, f ll ppls clsly fllwd Bblcl rls, w wld hv rltv wrld pc. Yt, vn whn w hv th rl bk f sccss, w r cmpltly nbl t s ts sprtl trth. Ths s s bcs Gd wll hv mrcy pn whm H wll hv mrcy. t s Hs prgrm. Fnlly, ‘svd’ frm wht? Cyt s crrct n tht th tr nmy f mn s Jhvh. t th ppntd tm, Jhvh wll dstry ths nvrs, wth th xcptn f Hs ‘svd’ lct. H hs Hs wn rsns, m crtn.

scout, I didn't write that, I just linked to it to counter balance your god-rhetoric. This is a political blog, not a religious forum. It was a joke. Please stop.

My God, I can't believe this post today. I must admit it was much more enjoyable reading, as opposed to the typical ones.

And thank you God of War, you were extremely thought provoking. I even had to pontificate on some of your posts....they were intriguing.

As to the economic conditions of the US, I'm always amazed at how the liberals percieve it. I for one see a benefit in other world economies coming out of their poverty by building and making cheap goods that make it to the U.S. for our huge consumerism.

I see no real poor in the US. I see color televisions and cell phones in almost every home. Mind you, I know there are many below the poverty belt, many truely in need, but I don't buy this argument of the poor being so wide spread.

Today a client was upset about her $60,000 Mercedes Benz being wrecked. Of course, she had no health insurance and didn't know how she was going to pay for her medical bills. She was only 28. Made me sick to see the lack of individual responsibilty.

As to Muckdog, I'm only hoping Battlestar moves to the Universal HD channel sooner than later, I love watching them in HD, but they are re-runs.

My wife and I are huge fans....

Not to rain on anybody's economic parade but I see more and more young Veterans now homeless. Iraqi Veterans I suppose, tired of the battles with the VA. Crawling under a bridge to escape life is easier. When they come out and ask for a buck, give it to them! It will make you feel better!

Iamcoyte, thanks for your post. I agree. This blog is becoming less and less a site of quality discussions because of trolls. I too am tired of the whose dick is bigger game. The issues are too serious to clog up this site with nonsense from trolls. Now watch the push back about how we are against freedom of speech. You can count on it.

The fun part will be trying to get mucky to think of something "more to life."

He got pretty excited about the Xbox.

Ann, he gets pretty excited going to those porno sites too. LOL

Anjha, what an excellent post. You are so right. It starts with each of us speaking truth to falsehood. How many times have I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to get into a political discussion. In fact, tonight would be one of those times. You have encouraged me to speak out in the hope that maybe someone will consider an alternative view.

Above post by me.

"Coyote, Pess, and readers that tend to view our ruling cabal as true Christians".

I cannot think of one person here who believes these people are Christians.

Cyt, y strck th trgt f th prblm. Pltcs wrps tslf rnd rlgn. ndd, vry scl nstttn crss cltrs wrp rnd rlgn. Whn mdrn pltcl pndts nd fls spk bt th rtnl f th wrtrs f r Cnstttn, thy nly s wht thy wnt t s t mntn thr hgh lvl f gnrnc nd t bld thr prtclr frm f mdrn rlgn: sclr hmnsm. Ths, r dt pltcl ‘phlsphrs’ fl t s tht vry scl spct f th rgnl mrcn scty, ys mprfct, ws nvrthlss wrppd rnd th sld Chrstn rlgn f th Bbl.

Ths s why gntly cntn t hmmr n th rlgn ss. m pntng t tht r cltr f tdy hs dsmntld tr Chrstnty rplcng th vd wth sclr hmnsm. ndd, ls pnt t tht r s-clld mdrn Chrstns r nthng mr thn sclr hmnsts. Ths s th vry cntr f r crprt pwr bs: sclr hmnsm rjcts th sprtl ntr f Bblcl trth nd prss th gd f mny.

Wtht dng rsrch, nd dn’t knw yr g, lk t th rcnt pst cncrnng vn th Chrstn lbls n th crths; ngng nd bzrr ‘ntllgnt dsgn’ crt cmbt, tc. Ths r smply mdrn xmpls f th ngng fct f th dtrrtn f r fndng fthrs; nd t ws ths gys tht mrrrd th Bbl whn wrtng th Cnstttn. f n fls t ndrstnd th bv fcts f th ntmcy f rlgn nd scl nstttns, thn hw cn h lrn bt th vry hgh bstrctns f Trth? mpssbl. nd ths s th wy Gd wld hv t; Gd mks t mpssbl fr mn t grp th Trth. Ths s s bcs r vry ntr s nt ‘gd,’ bt vl. W’r s dmn vl tht w nly chs btwn vls. ‘Lbrl,’ r ‘Cnsrvtv?’ t smply dsn’t mttr bcs wtht Gd, w smply rplc vl wth vl.

Nw, hp tht y s why m bl t wrt n ny blg: cnsrvtv, bby cmmnst; sclst; fscst; shml; Hnd; Bddhst; whtvr, bcs jst hppnd t knw jst vry lttl f nt nly th bv, bt f wrld hstry, wrld sclgy, wrld psychlgy, nd jst bt f myslf, cmbnd wth smll lvl f wrtng cmptncy.

trly pprct th Cstr Blg fr ts tlrnc, lthgh nt tht ptnc s wrng. dn’t s ny prblms wth ny pstrs n ths blg; bt thn hv wrkd wth th hrdst hmns n th plnt: Cbn Mrlts, Blds, Crps, 18th Strtrs, Sr; Nrts, nd th vry wrs, bck stbbng, lzy, fft fdrl gnts whn dd tm s S Mrshl. (BTW, Mrshls d nthng bt ps; wrkd wth th bv s Shrff nd tchr f hstry n prsns nd yth thrty n C.) Thrfr, whn mst s dsrspct, slly s tht nthng ws hrmflly mnt. Bt thn, nlss s gn, knf, r scrw drvr pntd my wy, dn’t wrry bt mch.

Jdth, cncrnng yr bv pnt, nd pst pnt n nthr pst, ( rcll mst thngs tht rd vrywhr) th mjr symptm shwng tht th chrch g hs ndd s tht t rflcts th tsd cltr. Th chrch hs bcm Bbyln. Ths w s th chrch gttng nvlvd n pltcs, nstd f pltcs tryng t mrrr th chrch (s th hypcrts f ld). ls, mndn thngs: chrchs d dy cr, dsstr rlf fr ths tsd th chrch; bsktbll crts, sk trps, sktbrd prks, tc. jst t bld mmbrshp pn fndtn f psd-trth n th nm f fnncl ‘prft.’ W nw hv hmsxl pstrs nd t hs bn rvld tht thy r prdtrs f chldrn; xctly s ths tsd f th chrch. Jst s th dd chrch prys pn ppl, w nt r rlrs, pltcl nd cnmc, pryng pn ppl n th nm f prft.

I completely agree with iamcoyotes reaction to GoW's tirades.

Not I. I tend to enjoy GOW's enthusiasm for intellectual battle.

Summary: Without our true Christian institution, as designed by our forefathers, institutional chaos reigns.

Don't look now, but our Founding Fathers considered outlawing organized religion. It was left in place to keep people like you occupied. You would do yourself well if you were more widely read on the topic. You need to have someone nail you to a 2X4 so that you can complete your Chist complex.

There's more to life than money. The most important thing is enjoying what you do.

And enjoying what you do is making money. Nice circular argument, don't you think?

It's easy to ignore 11% unemployment in America, and this is most easily accomplished by ignoring anyone who has been seeking a job for more than 6 months. And let's not consider the phenomenon of underemployment. Wal-Martification is good for everyone, and certainly good for the corporate bottom line.

And a $1000 a month for health care spending? Why that's just excessive, until your bout with cancer costs $750,000. in one fell swoop.

And low taxes are just the superior path to economic recovery, especially since it's so unfair for the top 1% of earners to pay a fair share of taxes they (the top 1%) would pay on the 66% of total income made in the United States each year they seem to haul in -you know, 66% of the total income made in the United States- each year. No, indeed. They should not support the infrastructure that allows them to pack in the incredible wealth they can stack up. It just seems unfair.

No. It is indeed much better that the middle class supports the entire burden of educating their children and covering their healthcare so that they can then be good -and largely unispired, existing without aspiration, but with lots of faith and misery- employees who can continue to help the wealthy stack money ass deep in their bank accounts.

Among the lacunae in your argument are the absolute lack of shared sacrifice and concern for the welfare of your fellow Americans. Don't worry! Just because the fastest growing segment of the homeless population are Iraq vets, and the fastest growing group presenting for treatment of severe mental disorders are Iraq vets, there should be no cause for concern. There seems to be a bubble in tech stocks! Well fuck me silly if I fail to see the bright side of things and don't stop to sniff the mother-fucking flowers. Having a conscience does that to a person.

Muckdog = "America 2nd, Me 1st"