I think you all miss the point on this issue. It is not illegal. the US was atacked on 11 September 2001 from bases located right here in the US that makes the US a battle ground. It is not illegal to gather electronic intelligenceon the enemy. since the battlefeild is a mutli-echelon and mutli-deminsional one we have to adaptour siganls intelligence to the enemy's methods. the troop in this battle may fall under the NSA or FBI butthe goal is the same to destroy the terrorists capabilty to kill us and increase our ablilty to kill them. You wouldn't stop theArmed force from gathering intel why do you want to stop the Homeland security personel form doing the same.
Posted by Avenger D-22 at March 27, 2006 09:39 AMPosting in the White House basement can lead to arthritus and radon poisoning.
Posted by TIKI AL at March 27, 2006 11:54 AMcomrade avenger is right. all power to the executive!
Posted by josef stalin at March 27, 2006 11:57 AMHi, just dropped in for the first time from Firedoglake.
You guys have some interesting posters here; Avenger D22? Wasn't that a Marvel comic? Well, dear Avenger, no one is against wiretapping terrorists. We just have this thing called the Constitution that we really think is important. (You must have missed school that day.) The constitution says that the government can't search our homes or tap our phones without a court order. (We call that the 'seperation of powers' it has worked pretty good for a long time now, yep, even in war time.) The FISA court (google it) was set up just for that purpose. Our President swore to uphold the Constitution and obey our laws. If you can get enough people to agree with you and vote, we can change the Constitution. That is what we call democracy. What do you call your way?
Shorter D-22: the enemy is us.
Posted by Sharon at March 27, 2006 01:06 PMSo basically what your saying is you have no idea that he Avenge weapons sytem exist protectoing you butts everday. Why am i not suprised. Not when did terrorists get Constutional rights? What next green stamps from the democratic party? You might want to dust of your copy of the Constitution nowhere does it say that foreign calls to the US can't be treated as signal intelligence. But lets that president bush is forced to stop this intelligence gathering then what? What do prospose to use to find the terrorist wiht FISA the sheer volume what is monitored would make that worthless. New legisation whatwording would appease civil rights activist who seem to cheering on the terrorsits to the middle Amercian man. What is the liberal plan? Not critism or insult or anything else. what is the plan please tell me I love to know . change my mind with ideas not hatered of president Bush prove to me the democrats can keep my family safe. I don't give a rats ass about abortion or gays rights or the economy all I'm asking of is a plan that I can weight the merits of. All i see though so far is a bunch of armchair quterbacking and bashing of the President. if i ask questions it becuase i want answers or make statement its not to offend but offer my views but here again just becuase i have a different opinion I'm insulted or denigrated why is that? i'm confused i thought liberals rspected the right of freedom of speech even when it goes against what they believe. so far this has not been provcen the case. We should all think of ourselves as Americans first.
Posted by Avenger D-22 at March 27, 2006 02:41 PMWell, Avenger, let me say, no, even though I am a veteran, I had no idea that Avenger D22 was 'protectoring' my butt everyday. What, pray tell does it do to manage that and where was it Sept. 11th? If you read my post again you will notice that the only thing I said about the President, any President is that they swear to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the land. Though overseas telephone calls are not actually mentioned in that document they are in the FISA courts. Warrants can be issued after the fact by the FISA courts. Of the thousands of warrants issued by the FISA courts only a handful were turned down.
I didn't mean to in anyway challenge you rights to free speech, in fact I am attempting to encourage you to engage in that very right. Yes, we all have a right to our on opinions but we don't have a right to our own facts. Liberals do not side with the terrorists. That is a lie and offends me as an American.
As to the plan? Well, as civilizations have matured nations have used diplomatic means to settle their differences and that seems to work better than killing each other's children. But specifically when we are talking about terrorism we are not talkihng about nations with territory we can bomb or blockade. Terrorist are more like a gang of thugs. You take them out just like you would any gang. Find them, arrest them and put them in jail, or kill them. For that we need intellegence and a skilled group of fighting men focused on that one task. We don't need to occupy countries, bomb innocent people and loose the respect of the rest of the world to do that. The day after 9/11 Figaro the largest newpaper in France ran the Headline "We are all Americans now!" The whole world shared our schock and loss. Today we are compared to every ugly facist state that ever was. Who would you say is responsible for that? Who made the decision that brought us to this point? Who profits from what we are doing? Not the kids coming home broken or in body bags. Not the American people who, man, woman and child are in debt $30,000 dollars each to the tune of 9 Trillion dollars.
What is the "liberal" plan? Remember Kosovo? We stopped genocide, and didn't lose a man. The last President left a surplus in the Treasury. He wasn't perfect but he did well by our country. I just don't happen to think the current resident of the people's house is doing a very good job. That doesn't amount to bashing. It is my opinion and I have an awful lot of facts to back that opnion up.
The lets arrest them angle didnt work. that what Clinton did. It only encourage them to attack us.
fact 1993 World Trade Center bomb.
Response FBI investigates arrest tthe blind sheik
Fact Embassies in Afica bomb
Clinton's response Investigate some more
USS Cole attacked
Clinton's response more investigations
True he did luanch Desert Fox
Fact Nothing accomplished
So what is the other option
d-22: What part of unregulated spying being a bad thing don't you understand? Without oversight they can spy on their political opponents, personal enemies, etc., like Nixon, Hoover, or Stalin.
We are not saying don't spy, just be on the record with some checks and balances. They can even spy first and get a warrant later.
Whats your take on the 2 dirty bombs smuggled into "secured for your kids Bushland"?
Posted by TIKI AL at March 27, 2006 05:01 PMd-22: Learn to spell, and save us from trying to guess at what you are attempting to say.
Posted by tempus at March 27, 2006 07:40 PMAvenger,
Excuse me? I tried to be nice. I didn't bash Bush. I tried to have a civil dialogue. Your point seems to be that you want vengence. Thus your chosen name. Vengence be mine sath the lord. Okay? Asshole. If you are so ready to kill children and don't give a fuck about what happens to our country I shall waste no more of my time or compassion on your bullshit. You appear to be a facist. And I hate facist. So, I shall not engage in conversation or debate with idiots like you. No, I'm not denying you your rights to free speech, I am execising my right to not suffer fools. bye bye.
Peace, think about it.
Posted by upper left edge at March 27, 2006 10:38 PM"In the meantime, George Bush shows off to China how he and China share the definition of the word "freedom".
Interesting that, in that the Bush Administration continues to unlawfully deny freedom to kidnapped Chinese held at Guantanamo:
http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2005/12/two_chinese_gua.html
eriposte, I did vote for you for a Koufax award. Good luck!!
Posted by Herman at March 28, 2006 07:20 AMOK upper left edge you tried to be nice I ask you a question. You answered and I responded then you personaly attacked me instead of debating or arguing your point. I thought maybe you had an idea or may two but forgive me for giving my point of view on how treating terrorism as a criminal matter did not work but actually encouraged and emboldened the terrorists. As to my name no it was not picked becuase I want vengence but for my Military Occupational Specialty 14S20 Avenger teamchief. An Avenger is an air defence weapon system with 8 stinger missile and a .50 cal. machingun. you may have seen pictures of it shortly after 9/11 its is mounted on a HMMWV and was near the Washington Monument in one of the pictures I saw. As for killing children I have never killed one but i guess you were making a generalization and trying to be politically correct and not come right out and call me a baby killer. I guess your anti-soldier feelings are simmering just beow the surface. Also at no time did I advocate violence I asked for your other option. Do you have one? That is my question? If treating terrorism as a criminal matter as Clinton did and didn't work what other options do you have? Isolationism? I don't think that will work but hey we could try. Diplomacy where do we send our ambassodor to I don't beleive the terrorists have an address anymore. Do we just stay on permanent defense? That could work but might be very costly becuase every now and then they might slip on by and then well bye bye a few thousand amercian civilians. I'm kinda out of ideas at this time even though I'm always on the look out for either improving on these ones or finding new ones feel free to critque these ideals or offer up others I'd love see what others could come up with. To those English majors out there Plz. excuse my poor typing and spelling, some times I'm in a rush or tired. Have a nice night.
Posted by Avenger D-22 at March 28, 2006 09:39 PM