I wonder if the sheer numbers might put a little fear into the hearts of people who are against immigration because they're afraid of the country being "taken over" by those of a different culture. I think it's really important that they stay peaceful (that's been a really impressive feature of the demonstrations so far). And I think they would be much better off if they stopped displaying the Mexican flag so much and waved the US flag instead. Speaking as a third-generation immigrant, people who come to a new country are accepted much better if they try to adapt to the culture they have come to, rather than considering themselves standard-bearers for the country they have left.
Posted by Leslie T at April 10, 2006 04:18 AMAnd I think they would be much better off if they stopped displaying the Mexican flag so much and waved the US flag instead. Speaking as a third-generation immigrant, people who come to a new country are accepted much better if they try to adapt to the culture they have come to, rather than considering themselves standard-bearers for the country they have left.
Right. You go tell those Irish what for. Those St. Patty's day parades are totally uncalled for.
Honestly, those immigration protests scared the hell out of a lot of white people elsewhere. Because their latino immigrants are so quiet and don't speak unless they're spoken to.
Posted by idiosynchronic at April 10, 2006 04:32 AMidiosyncratic, I think you are exaggerating what I said. I'm not saying that people should deny their heritage. I'm just suggesting that they could be less "in your face" about it. My family kept its religion and its holiday customs and its foods and sometimes its language in the home. But my grandparents learned English, and voted, and fought for the United States, and considered themselves to be Americans. When a group displays the flag of another country, I think many people consider it to be a statement that they are not fully commited to becoming Americans.
Posted by Leslie T at April 10, 2006 04:57 AMBased on comments I hear from the Good Orange County (CA) Republicans I work with, Leslie T is correct. They do feel like Latinos in particular are very 'in your face' with their foreign heritage, and they advocate the most extreme measures to 'counter' this 'threat' to their ethnic manhood.
Sociologists will tell you that ethnic and national identity weaken as time passes, which is why the Irish are most vocal about their heritage on St. Paddy's Day and not the rest of the year. No one thus cares about the Irish expressing their pride.
But when you get it in the face everyday, it does get a little old.
Posted by pessimist at April 10, 2006 05:33 AMYwn... W'r sd t sng th mb mntlty t wrk; rcsts tryng t lgtmz crmnlty n th gs f scl jstc.
[Editor: ignore=off]I really don't know what’s going on, but it is a rather peculiar situation. The white, moneyed class certainly make use of their immigrant help, particularly when they can write it off their tax bill. But they are also the bunch seeking new immigration rules. Strange days indeed....
Posted by tempus at April 10, 2006 06:10 AMYawn... We're used to seeing the mob mentality at work; racists trying to legitimize criminality in the guise of social justice.
Posted by Bendito at April 10, 2006 06:10 AM
*****
GOP politics in a nutshell.
Posted by God Of War at April 10, 2006 06:14 AMI think the fact that the protests have been almost completely peaceful has certainly made it harder for those who would use them to appeal to the fears of the "immigrant takeover" crowd.
As far as the whole Americanflag/Mexican flag thing goes I think that this country is headed toward having a more hispanic identity than it ever has previously. There isn't going to be as much of a need for hispanic immigrants to adopt the "American culture" because the American culture is moving, like it or not, towards the increasingly evident hispanic undercurrents. Anyone who thinks that your ethnic bacground was not important to how you were recieved in old America is fooling themselves. The white Anglo-Saxon presence on this planet is headed for permanent minority status folks. Deal with it.
It may get old but there's nothing to be done about it. Unless your a fan of mandatory "Americanization". Home of the free, land of the indoctrinated! What is "American" has never been a static lifeless unchanging thing. It's a bit hubristic to think that our present generation constitutes what is "American". 200 years from now spanish may be spoken in Congress and there's nothing anyone alive today is going to do about that. Nor should anyone try to do anything about it.
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 06:36 AMThe question is what effect will the marches have on the crucial "independents", who now decide all elections in this country.
My suspicion---KKKarl makes sure there is plenty of free water available at pro-immigrant rights marches, especially if Mexican flags are going to be prominently displayed. The TV news cameras always seem to catch such displays, don't they? Wonder why.
snark, your analysis is exemplary; it is also likely anathema to two-thirds of the adult population.
Posted by euzoius at April 10, 2006 06:57 AMSince I'm here in AZ, where a shitstorm is brewing, this is a good local article that proves divides in the re-pukeli-con party exists. It is from a re-pukeli-con slanted view.
I say anything to drive a wedge in that party is good for change in this country.
This blog is really head above the rest on the issue. Put it in your favorites, especially while this is a hot button topic.
I'm wondering if this is the distraction that the repukes wanted for the election.
If you look at the poll numbers, all of sudden immigration is almost equal to the economy in being a major problem facing America today.
Whatever the issue the Dems should put a face on the humanity issue. Clear the air, some repukes literally want illegals to die in the desert.
Another face of hate for the repukes, illegal immigrants.
Posted by bbtb at April 10, 2006 07:12 AMsnark, your analysis is exemplary; it is also likely anathema to two-thirds of the adult population.
Agreed. About the anathema part. ;)
It sort of amazes me. The fact that people can become so inflamed about what they see as an attack on the "American culture". All of us are only here for what, a 100 years at best? Yet the thought that this country could be shifting toward a national identity that will not be white Anglo-Saxon scares people so much. The wingers like to lampoon the French for the very same reason. The French are seen as the archtype for trying to maintain their culture in a bubble. Yet those very same people are desperate to do the same thing here. It's laughable. Why should I give a crap that this country may be spanish speaking in 100 years? I'll be a bit of dust in the bottom of a box then.
The best thing I could do right now is make sure my children are prepared to deal with whatever comes down the pipeline to them. My wife speaks four languages. My older daughter speaks English, French and has a Spanish tutor once a week. She's six. Growing up I didn't know a single Spanish speaking person. If you'd have told me I'd have tri-lingual kids I would have laughed at you.
Give your kids the tools they'll need because trying to influence what's gonna go on once you're dead is a fools errand.
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 07:19 AMBTW, they are expecting a crowd of 100,000 today in Phoenix for the march.
Posted by bbtb at April 10, 2006 07:47 AMWe are a nation of immigrants and these marches remind us of the often silent millions who help to harvest our fruit, clean hotel bathrooms, fix our patios and pools, care for our children.
And Irish flags wave alongside U.S. flags during the St. Patrick's Day marches; and Israeli flags wave alongside U.S. flags during Israel Independence Day festivals; and French flags alongside U.S. flags on French Independence Day.
It is fear-mongering (again) to say that the Mexican flags are 'in your face' or different from any of these.
Remember the Emma Lazarus poem still found on the base of the Statue of Liberty? Have we forgotten that this is a nation built on immigrants and intended to offer shelter to those in need!
Give me your tired your poor
Your huddled masses yearning to breath free
Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed to me
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door
fwiw, my buddy (a hard-left Peruano) said at the last march they recited the pledge of allegiance
Posted by benjoya at April 10, 2006 08:05 AMAll of this immigration crap is totally conclusive evidence that the string-pullers in DC can take any issue and slam it into first-place in the national consciousness. Two months ago, this issue was off the radar. Shouldn't have been, but it was...and then the string-pullers did their pullin' and the American puppet citizenry danced on cue.
A pathetic commentary on the American public.
THIS is how these jackals win elections on gay marriage and fear and loathing while real issues that really affect people, like health care, environmental degradation, energy policy, wage stagnation, etc., are essentially ignored.
What a pathetic crew the majority of our fellow citizens are.
Posted by God Of War at April 10, 2006 08:17 AMJesus, I just watched General Zinni on Comedy Central with Jon Stewart. If we only had a few more of him around, we would not be in the friggin' mess we are. Apparently the Army still teaches the truth. I wish I could say the same for the Marines.
Posted by tempus at April 10, 2006 08:46 AMFlawless analysis by GOW.
And no one asks, "Hey, how come Mistah Prez'dint (and the Republican Congress) didn't focus on illigration in early 2005, and not social security, if it was such a crisis?"
2002: That Satanic Madman Saddam
2004: Gay Marriage from Hell
2006: The Immigrant Plague
Onward, Christian Soldiers and Yahoo Clowns....onward to save your nation once again!!
Posted by euzoius at April 10, 2006 08:56 AM$2M In Debt, Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition Losing Its Base...
In an era when conservative Christians enjoy access and influence throughout the federal government, the organization that fueled their rise has fallen on hard times.
The once-mighty Christian Coalition, founded 17 years ago by the Rev. Pat Robertson as the political fundraising and lobbying engine of the Christian right, is more than $2 million in debt, beset by creditors' lawsuits and struggling to hold on to some of its state chapters.
In March, one of its most effective chapters, the Christian Coalition of Iowa, cut ties with the national organization and reincorporated itself as the Iowa Christian Alliance, saying it "found it impossible to continue to carry a name that in any way associated us with this national organization."
"The credibility is just not there like it once was," said Stephen L. Scheffler, president of the Iowa affiliate since 2000. "The budget has shrunk from $26 million to $1 million. There's a trail of debt. ... We believe, our board believes, any Christian organization has an obligation to pay its debts in a timely fashion."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/#a018801
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2006 09:00 AMtempus, I think Zinni was Marine Corps.
Posted by bbtb at April 10, 2006 09:00 AMApparently the Army still teaches the truth. I wish I could say the same for the Marines.
Was the A Few Good Men reference intentional? Or did the movie actually come closer to reality than most?
Posted by idiosynchronic at April 10, 2006 09:01 AMThe protests will help the cause in the long run. Yes, there will be short-term negative reactions,like "Holy cow! Look at all those brown people! They must all be @#%* illegals!". However, the Republicans have managed a national repeat of the California Prop 187 debacle. Prop 187 galvanized the Hispanic electorate, and entrenched the Democratic Party in Cali (Kindergarten Cop, notwithstanding). HB 4437 will do the same, but on a national level.
Posted by Grunt at April 10, 2006 09:06 AM"The credibility is just not there like it once was," said Stephen L. Scheffler, president of the Iowa affiliate since 2000. "The budget has shrunk from $26 million to $1 million. There's a trail of debt. ... We believe, our board believes, any Christian organization has an obligation to pay its debts in a timely fashion."
In other words "The party was fun but you're on your own to clean up the mess".
LOL! A true Christian outlook right there. Have these people no shame?
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 09:07 AMPessimist:
Based on comments I hear from the Good Orange County (CA) Republicans I work with, Leslie T is correct. They do feel like Latinos in particular are very 'in your face' with their foreign heritage, and they advocate the most extreme measures to 'counter' this 'threat' to their ethnic manhood.
Pronoun trouble - who's got the ethnic manhood problem here? The latinos, or the GOC's you work with? (FWIW - most men have manhood issues, IMO.)
Sociologists will tell you that ethnic and national identity weaken as time passes, which is why the Irish are most vocal about their heritage on St. Paddy's Day and not the rest of the year. No one thus cares about the Irish expressing their pride.
That's because they do it with American flags and white bedsheets the rest of the year 'round. (I'm just in a nasty snarky mood today, ain't I?)
FWIW - I think we're starting to see the beginnings of this acceptance of latino culture as a day of pride thing with Americans. Cinco de Mayo maybe just another excuse for white people get drunk off their asses for another day, but isn't that how you gain acceptance into a majority culture?
But when you get it in the face everyday, it does get a little old.
Free expression is a bitch.
Posted by idiosynchronic at April 10, 2006 09:11 AM"$2M In Debt, Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition Losing Its Base..."
Heh.
Nice to see that justice still exists in this world.
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 09:12 AMI will say one thing about hispanics, they show Americans what it means to protest for something you believe in. They have sworn to march until the November elections.
Activists sign up protesters to put them on road to polls.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/041006dnmetvoting.80611f1.html
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2006 09:14 AMI posted this on L&L.
This immigration issue is just a divisive bone thrown out by the right to distract the American people from the truth.
Nukes being dropped on Iran in an illegal act: Intl Crime folks, committed by the US.
This is the real news.
However, the news cycle is inundated with immigrant issues.
The antiwar folks and reality based Dems must mobilize with the immigrants.
In studying the politics of the 1960's you can see how different groups - ones that might not mix otherwise - joined together in their fights for civil rights, women's rights, peace movement, voting rights...
We must join the immigrants with the anti-war message; the Pukes have made certain that this is what is in the news.
The only way to get out the truth about this felonous administration is to join with the immigration rights movement.
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 09:18 AMFrom the mouths of babes.
My ten year old says to me this morning:
"Mom, the only people who really understand discrimination are people of other races. There has never been a black president so there has never been a president who really knows what discrimination is."
I said, 'yes, and there has never been a woman president.'
He said, "a woman is the only one who can really understand sexist." (He meant sexism.)
Then he said, "well sometimes a man experiences sexism, but not as much."
Then I explained to him how in the House of Reps, on the Puke side, there are only a handful of women, no blacks, a few Hispanics, a couple of Jews, etc - the Puke side in the House is mostly white men.
We talked about how it is impossible for these people to legislate for the rights of all people when they only identify with white men.
My kid understands why our country is in the state that it is better than most adults.
We are white and live in a primarily white neighborhood and my son attends a multicultural school; many of my kid's classmates are immigrants. His statements were based on compassion and empathy, something sorely lacking in our government.
Why is it so hard for these pricks in Washington DC to get what my amazing child understands?
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 09:30 AM"$2M In Debt, Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition Losing Its Base..."
Heh.
Nice to see that justice still exists in this world.
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 09:12 AM
*****
What about his PsuedoChrist Vitamins?
Posted by God Of War at April 10, 2006 09:38 AMIn other news...
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 09:40 AMThe question is what effect will the marches have on the crucial "independents", who now decide all elections in this country.
Posted by euzoius at April 10, 2006 06:57 AM
E, I am starting to disagree with this statement. Based on some panels that I have been watching on the 2006 elections, it seems that the Suburban vote is the one that determines elections now.
Rural (Puke) and Urban (Dem) are no longer going to the polls as they used to. It is now the Suburban voters that the Dem Party needs to tap into. We need to continue to drill home issues that affect the Suburban people. The Dems have all of the issues that Suburbanites care about; the Pukes are better at getting to them by exploiting religion and racism.
We need to turn the table.
uRcoyote: They only identify with RICH white men.
bb: Not all the Mexicans are marching today, there are 6 working on the house across the street. Bless their little stucco smearing hearts, they are improving the neighborhood as we speak.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 10:01 AMbbtb: my bad. He just seemed to be taking a rational stance. Again, my apologies.
Posted by tempus at April 10, 2006 10:08 AMTIKI, it appears you've mistaken me for Anjha - I'm honored!
BTW, did you see our dear bbtb's post at L&L? He's Seven of Six (or SOS) to keep his reputation intact. Whoops! Go show him some love!
Posted by iamcoyote at April 10, 2006 10:15 AMSorry ,Anjha, I got you mixed up with the prairewolfette on that RICH white men comment.
Have any of you seen "North Country" DVD? (about first class action sexual harassment lawsuit in the country)
Just saw a black guy on CNN burning a Mexican flag in Tucson. What's up with that? I see the crowds in Phoenix have switched to US flags. That should help their cause.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 10:25 AMTIKI, 'Coyote' is the nicest thing that I have been called on this blog. I thank you much.
Posted by Anjha at April 10, 2006 10:33 AMI can feel the love on this thread.
[Wipes tear from eye.]
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 10:41 AMPronoun trouble - who's got the ethnic manhood problem here? The latinos, or the GOC's you work with?
It applies equally to both groups, idio! Each tries to be more manly than the other, and the only net result is machismo rules and intellect drools - or so they claim.
Cinco de Mayo maybe just another excuse for white people get drunk off their asses for another day, but isn't that how you gain acceptance into a majority culture?
Too true! If Muslims drank, and had a drinking holiday like St. Paddy's Day, Cinco de Mayo, or Super Bowl Sunday, they wouldn't face so much hatred.
From the mouths of babes...
Anyone remember that ancient media mariner Art Linkletter? (He's appearing in a stage production in Palm Desert this week if anyone cares!) He used to present news topics to kids just to hear what they would have to say. Sometimes, just as Anjha's child displays, a great deal of wisdom is revealed in those comments.
I wonder if anyone today would be brave enough to try this on live TV?
Posted by pessimist at April 10, 2006 10:43 AMIf the Republicans really wanted to reverse this type of immigration, it would be easy and cheap. Simply announce that the US will enforce existing law and jail the head of any business or corporation that employs aliens without papers. Do a couple of prosecutions, and the jobs would disappear. Without jobs, there would be a large and rapid efflux of the unpapered. Quick, easy and cheap.
But this is not what the Republicans are doing. Rep Boehner (R) killed the bill, and blamed the death on Harry Reid (D) of the Senate. This serves all kinds of Republican interests, which I leave it to the reader to unravel.
If the Republicans really wanted to reverse this type of illegal drug use, it would be easy and cheap. Simply announce that the US will enforce existing law and jail anyone who uses or sells illegal drugs. Do a couple of prosecutions, and the drugs would disappear. Without the drugs, there would be a large and rapid efflux of users. Quick, easy and cheap.
Sound familiar?
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 11:02 AMpessimists say the darndest things. Yes, I remember Art doing the "Kids say the darndest things" bit, on live TV. The show made it clear why tigers eat their young.
Do the French get depressed on Cinco de Mayo?
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 11:08 AMDo the French get depressed on Cinco de Mayo?
No.
They get drunk like everyone else.
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 11:13 AMEven the decendents of Napoleon? They take losing battles seriously. You know, like democrats and elections.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 11:20 AMEven the decendents of Napoleon?
They may get depressed but they're not really French anyway.
Posted by snark at April 10, 2006 11:22 AMAnyone remember that ancient media mariner Art Linkletter? (He's appearing in a stage production in Palm Desert this week if anyone cares!) He used to present news topics to kids just to hear what they would have to say. Sometimes, just as Anjha's child displays, a great deal of wisdom is revealed in those comments.
I wonder if anyone today would be brave enough to try this on live TV?
Posted by pessimist at April 10, 2006 10:43 AM
It was a lovely show. Cosby did a re-do of it for a while.
I am actually thinking that we should have fourth graders run for Congress. I believe that the House of Representatives would be returned to a place of honor and integrity and common-fucking-sense.
However - platforms would be reduced to who is the cutest vs. the now who is the richest and can spend the most to get elected.
This might benefit us all because the rich kids tend to be bratty and snotty whereas the less wealthy children seem to maintain all of their original charm.
We have a 4th grader in congress. His name is J.D. Hayworth.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 11:43 AMSnark: If the Republicans really wanted to reverse this type of illegal drug use, it would be easy and cheap. Simply announce that the US will enforce existing law and jail anyone who uses or sells illegal drugs. Do a couple of prosecutions, and the drugs would disappear. Without the drugs, there would be a large and rapid efflux of users. Quick, easy and cheap.
War on illegal immigrants, eh?
It's a time-honored American way of life to do under-teh-table cash for labor.
Posted by idiosynchronic at April 10, 2006 11:59 AMOut and about this morning, took about an hour for the local car wash to do my car. 3/4 of the work force gone, a few irate elderly white men who were missing their tee time. Mexican restraunt closed, had to eat chinese. No hispanics to do their dishes at the chinese place. My (Mexican) wife did schedule the day off.
However, since there are so many hispanics many were still very busy. They are with them in spirit.
TIKI, Hayworth and his Abramhoff excuses should be booted out by the voters. Doesn't he represent Scottsdale and Tempe?
Do you think the 45/46 million uninsured in this country statistic shows illegals? And with all the layoffs I keep hearing about, why hasn't that number gone up in the last few years?
And the story of immigration, IS the story of union busting, and low/minimum wage, and corporate abuse and puke's "divide and conquer."
I heard on the radio this morning that the protesters were going to be carrying the American flag after hearing about the offense taken with the Mexican flag. Oh that our congresscritters could have such a receptive ear.
I think union representatives should get petitions signed by protesters...or democratic groups sign up activists.
Posted by Sharon at April 10, 2006 12:01 PMbb: That crook Hayworth was on Timmeh's show, and Timmeh mentioned that the popular ex-mayor of Tempe, Harry Mitchell was running against him, and did he think the Jackoff association made him vulnerable. Of course JD said no, but I think we can bounce him this time.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 10, 2006 12:36 PMTrivia: Your going to love this. Dick Cheney was pelleted once by a friend with a shotgun while hunting. Seems he was offended and "miffed" at the person who accidentally shot him.
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2006 01:56 PMPessimist, I had no idea that Linkletter was still alive. When I was growing up, that was my favorite show. One wouldn't dare ask kids today the questions he used to ask for fear of the answers.
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2006 02:11 PMImmigration March from Phoenix, AZ.
Posted by bbtb at April 10, 2006 02:13 PM"I think union representatives should get petitions signed by protesters...or democratic groups sign up activists."
Sharon, from what I am reading that is exactly what some Democratic are doing.
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2006 02:43 PM