Is it really freedom if we can't talk on the phone without being listened to by our government?
Posted by Tim at May 11, 2006 08:23 AMFeinstein, Dianne- (D - CA) Class I
331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
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Posted by at May 11, 2006 08:30 AMIt's one thing to suspect that abuses on this scale are occurring within our government. It's another thing entirely to receive confirmation that, yes, things really are as bad as one may have suspected.
With that, I find myself in a slight state of intellectual shock. By that I mean I want to say something relevant on this latest revelation but I find myself unable to compose anything intelligible.
Except for this lowly comment, that is.
Posted by Richard Harlos at May 11, 2006 08:49 AMIs it really freedom if we can't talk on the phone without being listened to by our government?
But think of all the freedoms you still have!
The freedom to associate with a pacifist group without fear of being spied on!
The freedom to be safe from warrantless searches!
The freedom to face your accusers and know what you are being charged with! You can never be spirited away to prison without a hearing, nor be held without charges!
You can say anything you want and never lose a government contract or funding!
Well, shit! Okay, so you don't have those freedoms any longer. Here's one:
You can own a gun!
There! That's all the fucking "freedom's" you need. That, and driving a gas-guzzling SUK-V as an extension for a small penis.
Posted by phidipides at May 11, 2006 08:54 AMTwo comments:
1) The USA today story confirms the stories that the electronic press (Wired, etc) have been reporting. It's too bad our Congress people are just waking up to the fact that this is happening. I guess it takes having a mainstream paper reporting the story for this type of news to break out into the mainstream.
2) I wonder how many tax dollars those phone companies are making off of helping the government spy on us? Are they reporting these dollars as profit or are they just getting soaked up in unreported executive pay? Except for Qwest, it seems that the price for subverting the rights of Americans doesn't have to be too high.
Posted by Mary at May 11, 2006 09:01 AMThanks for all this great analysis today, TLC. You are great.
The Dems 2006 story simply has to be: "There must be a check on this president, and the Republican Congress simply refuses do it. He is out of control, and must be subject to Congressional oversight to preserve our democracy."
If that doesn't convince the independents after stories like this, nothing will.
Posted by euzoius at May 11, 2006 09:23 AMMary
Well, the USA Today gets delivered free to business men and women staying in hotels all over the country. If you want to get the attention of a bunch of normally liberatarian-leaning conservative people in a pinch, go to the USA Today.
I've been wondering the same thing as Steve, though. Who orchestrated this leak. Someone in CIA, trying to preserve the company? Someone in NSA still offended that Hayden has walked away while they're still stuch conducting an illegal program? I just think we haven't discerned the logic behind Hayden sufficiently to understand who is responsible for this leak.
Though I will point out that the timing of revelations (Goss fires McCarthy, Goss implicated in ForniGate; Hayden nominated and NSA investigation squelched, USAT gets the big scoop) have been awfully curious of late.
Posted by emptywheel at May 11, 2006 09:26 AMI think its' payback from the CIA.
Posted by pwapvt at May 11, 2006 09:32 AMSo if they aren't doing anything "illegal" the why did they stop the DOJ investigation?
Posted by goose1 at May 11, 2006 09:37 AMDear NSA,
Kiss my fucking ass. And nice job on September 10, 2001. Way to be on the ball, you shitheads.
Now come and get me. I'll be waiting.
I've always suspected there was a "deepthroat" other than the pretzledent.
Posted by phidipides at May 11, 2006 09:38 AMNow come and get me. I'll be waiting.
They'll have to come through me.
I still fear,as others do,that this is a set up.The Bushies know most Americans support wiretaps authorized or not.So the possibility exist,the Dems are being drawn into a fight that will cost them seats in November.But if Hayden bails ,I will know my fear was groundless.
Posted by Kevin at May 11, 2006 09:51 AMgow & phil ive got the back door
Posted by PABLO at May 11, 2006 10:01 AMAs we all know Dumbya is a lying sack-of-shit horse fucker. And he thinks we don't know it.
Posted by red_neck_repub at May 11, 2006 10:06 AMThe Bushies know most Americans support wiretaps authorized or not
did you pull that out of your ass or Rush's? in the most recent poll i could find on the subject (2/7/06) - 56% say wiretaps should require a warrant.
and that's when we were being told about "international calls" and "terrorists" now we're talking about "domestic calls" and "everybody" what side are you on, punk?
Posted by benjoya at May 11, 2006 10:12 AMShow me the money, Mr. Bush, you pathetic, fucking liar.
When we first learned about the illegal and unconstitutional domestic wiretaping program, using the the NSA, we were assured the numbers of victims only involved a few hundred.
Now, it's tens-of-millions of Americans? Tens-of-millions of Americans are suspected of being "turrists?"
Stop the madness. Impeach this sorry excuse for a leader. Enough!
Posted by Christopher at May 11, 2006 10:31 AMAnyone who fails to see such operations as an infringement on our 'freedom' is a moron.
By the reasoning of those who support these operations the government could send agents to every house in America, open the door, walk in and search the place on the off chance that they may find an al Quada training manual laying around. Afterall, what's the problem with dealing with a little government intrusion if they can use the technique to find even one potential terrorist? Anyone without an al Qauda training manual on the living room coffee table has nothing to worry about. Right? Finding nothing the government agents will simply leave, closing the door behind them and everyones 'freedom' will be intact.
Posted by snark at May 11, 2006 10:31 AMIf the USAT story is accurate, Nero's statement is an intentional lie.
Big deal. Add it to the pile.
And how likely is this new spying program to be legal if NSA was unwilling to have the Dept of Justice (under Ashcroft!) opine on it?
Posted by euzoius at May 11, 2006 10:34 AMWhat an elegant summing up of the current situation. You're at your best when you're short and punchy.
Posted by Dixie Myers at May 11, 2006 10:40 AMCurrent cnn.com poll question:
How does the report that the NSA is building a database of Americans' phone calls make you feel?
76% Creepy
24% More secure
WTF is wrong with people????? How could BushCo keeping a log of my phone calls make anyone feel more secure? Wake up sheeple!
The term 'un-American' has been so misused by the rightwing recently that I feel there is a lack of understanding of exactly what is implied by saying something is 'un-American'.
The government data-mining millions of phone calls by millions of Americans as part of a phishing expedition and compiling a database of all those phone calls is un-American.
Posted by snark at May 11, 2006 10:56 AMI keep hearing the word "impeach" when Bush's name comes up. They impeached Clinton for having sex and that accomplished nothing. You never hear the word "resign" when people talk about Bush. Nixon resigned over the illegal wire tapping of a hand full of people. Bush has illegally wiretapped millions. Bush wire taps everyone in the name of "terror" trolling for dirt on any opposition or political opponent. That's what this is really about. Catch anyone that disagrees, and if there happens to also be a terrorist in there, they'll leak that to the public. They equate any person that disagrees with them as not being patriotic or the same as a terrorist. That's how they justify lies like "we're only looking for terrorist." You have to know their definition of the word which refers to Cindy Shehan, John Kerry, Michael Moore and the list goes on. Impeachment accomplishes nothing if a dictator remains in power. That's what concerns me. The USA cannot afford to keep Bush in power until 2008 with his threats of starting a nuclear war that he has already referred to as World War III. History is repeating itself. A few years ago they called anyone who disagreed with this political party, a "communist." The word is now "terrorist." By the way, did anyone notice that this week Bush came out with ways he was going to try protect Americans from identity theft. The hypocrisy in this administration is no longer even funny.
Posted by Tom Seals at May 11, 2006 11:03 AMsnrk, s y prbbly knw, 'n-mrcn' s nyn r nythng tht prclds crprt plcs; th trck s tht r rlrs mst s rwlln vn whl hdng bhnd th flg prtndng t b vrydy ppl. Ths, th vctms dntfy wth th vctmzrs: pr scl cntrl.
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[Editor: ignore=off]It's too bad our Congress people are just waking up to the fact that this is happening.
BS.
They know what is going on, they only react when there is credible public outcry or something to be gained politically.
Posted by at May 11, 2006 11:19 AM"The Bushies know most Americans support wiretaps authorized or not"
did you pull that out of your ass or Rush's? in the most recent poll i could find on the subject (2/7/06) - 56% say wiretaps should require a warrant.
Give Kevin a break ben, it is just a typo. He meant to say:
"The Bushies know most Americans support wiretaps authorized and not"
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[Editor: ignore=off]With the disclosure of this story, I wonder if the DINO trio, DiFi, Jane Harmon and Joementum, will still be so enthusiastic about Hayden's confirmation next week?
Posted by Christopher at May 11, 2006 11:29 AMLove to know who Quest's attorneys are. Quest certainly knows how to play hardball and could have participated in the leaks. Be interesting to see who got the govt contracts if indeed Quest was shut out. And the attorneys for BelSouth, et al could be scurrying around big time by now. I'm reminded how Luskin seems to so ably leak on Plamegate and wonder if a few attorneys were offended enough to leak.
Posted by mainsailset at May 11, 2006 12:01 PMAlso, corporations glean profit from myriads of favorable laws, contracts, propping political front-men, and the free use of their media channels for self promotion and social indoctrinations to guide future social trends to produce more or different profit and power sources. And, of course, everyday people support our corp boys on a monthly basis. They can't lose.
Posted by scout at May 11, 2006 11:26 AM
Would that include corporations like the 700 Club and the organized religions that get tax-free status, send their congregation lists to the Publicans, and publicly call for foreign leaders to be assassinated? Just curious...
This stuff is starting to make Wayne Madsen look very very tame.
Posted by mainsailset at May 11, 2006 12:34 PMHere's a thought for all the defenders of Bush and his illegal spying and data gathering: when you signed up for your phone service, if there was an option for the phone company to share any and all information regarding calls you made with the government, would you say yes or no? Be honest, I know that's hard, but imagine for a moment that you started your phone service when Clinton was in office.
Posted by ann at May 11, 2006 01:11 PMThis stuff is starting to make Wayne Madsen look very very tame.
I think I'd choose the word 'sane'. Not right, but not as far out in the stratosphere as some would lead us to belive.
Posted by idiosynchronic at May 11, 2006 01:15 PMWell first of all... The story neither suggests that the government is tracking or listening in to our phonecalls - The story states that the government is simplye recieving call logs that already exist and are already being tracked by our phone company anyways. The same call logs that they send through the public mail to you every month.
And ann...
If I had the choice between the phone company sharing my call logs with the NSA or some third party telemarketing agency... I would pick the NSA any day of the week.
I know the NSA won't be calling me at suppertime asking me if I am interested in a low introductory rate on a new credit card.
Posted by CH Truth at May 11, 2006 01:22 PMWow, Cafferty just said Specter is the only thing between us and a dictatorship. Guess we're fucked, cause Specters just a lapdog. Wolf looks dazed and confused. Fienstien is backtracking like a madwoman. Regrets that this might effect the Haydon hearings.
Look for all the telcoms that so gleely sold us out to the nazi's to tank. I would buy Quest stocks if I had any money, but I spend all I have on gas.
Bush is done, this is the fuel-air bomb (suck me NSA fuckheads) that took out the undisclosed location
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 11, 2006 01:28 PM"I happen to believe we are on our way to a major constitutional confrontation on 4th amendment guarantees of unreasonable search and seizure and I think this is also going to present a growing impediment to the confirmation of General Hayden." - Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) response to news the Bush administration has been wiretaping tens-of-millions of Americans phones
So, I take it that in 2009 when president elect John Edwards take the oath of office that C.H. will also have no problem with this program continuing then.
Posted by at May 11, 2006 01:39 PMIf I had the choice between the phone company sharing my call logs with the NSA or some third party telemarketing agency... I would pick the NSA any day of the week.
It's not a choice between the two, sos top with the strawman. We already have a Do Not Call list for telemarketers. But thanks, we'll make sure that all Democratic politicians get records of all your phone calls. And while you're at it, you may want to get that RFID implanted soon.
Posted by ann at May 11, 2006 01:41 PMThe same call logs that they send through the public mail to you every month.
You mean those ones that the government is supposed to secure a warrant from a court of law to get the phone companies to send to them? You know, after they show probable cause that you are breaking the law.
The phone companies don't sell telemarketers lists of everyone you called in the last 4 years a-hole.
Posted by snark at May 11, 2006 01:43 PMthe agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their “call-detail records,” a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.
from USA today
Sounds like tracking to me!
Corn Hole Twit, you either are paid to write the imbecilic nonsense you post, or you are an imbecile. I'm guessing the latter.
Corn Hole is just the latest brownshirt cultist to assert this is simply what telemarketers purchase from the phone companies. This must be the (always false) authoritarian talking point, and ann and snark have dealt with it thoroughly.
Obtaining the precise calling records of (millions) of people's telephone calls is almost certainly a "search" under the Fourth Amendment. Obviously all these searches were done without a warrant.
Since as reported there was no particularized articulable reason given to obtain ANY of these individual call records, the searches are very likely per se unreasonable, and thus a violation of the Fourth Amendment. They may also violate federal telecommunications law as well.
The only thing left for Nero Jr at this point is the Big Lie ("strictly terrorists! Not mining!"), and the commencement of "criminal" proceedings against the reporters and USAT.
The Glorious Leader may have to address the nation as a result of this revelation.
Posted by euzoius at May 11, 2006 02:18 PMTruth, I guess it ok with you if the government collects all the gun purchase information of every US citizen too?
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Some of these phone numbers belong to children under 18. Since we have had 2 Homeland security pedifiles arested how do we know that there are no pedifiles in the NSA?
Think about it.
Posted by goose1 at May 11, 2006 03:29 PM
"WTF is wrong with people????? How could BushCo keeping a log of my phone calls make anyone feel more secure? Wake up sheeple!"
Well, I think 24% probably represents people in mental institutions or people who should be in mental institutions.
Posted by at May 11, 2006 05:00 PMI see there are a lot of comments here. Haven't read them all.
Surveys show that Americans treasure their privacy. They also treasure their security. Not doing the simple step of going to the judge for a warrant is turing the country insane, paranoid. It shouldn't even be a topic for discussion, no headlines at all when the law is followed. They don't have to be terrorist candidates to be wire tapped, legally and quietly. The Bush gang seems to have an agenda that goes beyond national security[they could care less about our privacy]. They want us to make a very difficult decision, choose between privacy and security. It's not necessary. Getting a judge's OK to wire tap is necessary but they are above the law. Why? Another Bush change the subject from Iraq bugaboo?
Posted by Bill at May 11, 2006 05:48 PMNo one could have dreamed that with the stolen election of 2000 we would be standing in this moment in time. With that election, George Walker Bush changed everything and we still will not impeach him.
Posted by Judith at May 12, 2006 04:28 AMThe Iron Curtain has made it's way over here and we have no other person to blame but ourselves.
We have liars and their possies running the country.
Pretty pathetic to impeach a president for doing the dirty with an Intern, but let these people rein free and trample all over the constitution and our liberties.
Posted by Alarmed at May 14, 2006 07:45 AM