~sigh~
When are my liberal brother and sisters going to let go of this notion that Arlen Specter is one of the good guys in the GOP?
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Posted by Christopher at May 16, 2006 10:06 AMThis is why I laugh when news reports quote "powerful republicans" vowing to resist president Bush's plans - inevitably, Arlen Specter appears, and you know the man's going to either vote for it anyway, get bitchslapped, or be sitting in the dark with the crickets chirping.
Posted by idiosynchronic at May 16, 2006 10:07 AMWhen will someone ask exactly how we know a call is from "al-Qaida"? Everything I read about this group shows much disagreement among intel agencies and foreign governments as to who is a member. Whether a suspected adherent is alive or dead, belongs to some sub-group, possibly belongs to an organization actually opposed to al-Qaida or ever even existed to begin with is often debated. It would seem in this atmosphere every foreign person remotely opposed to the U.S. government is eavesdropped upon. And all their family members. And the journalists that write about them. And their doctors, lawyers, grocers and auto mechanics. For Bush to say it's al-Qaida we're monitoring is ludicrous. We're eavesdropping on the entire planet. Just say it and be done with it.
Posted by steve duncan at May 16, 2006 10:41 AMDoes anyone think that al-Queda wasn't aware of wire tapping capabilities some 20 or 30 years ago? The data they are gathering is totally useless in combatting terrorist activity! I'm pretty sure that al-Queda is up on disposable cell phones and that they aren't using landline phones.
Here's a good analysis of the data mining program from a mathematical perspective:
Posted by ann at May 16, 2006 10:49 AMThis whole thing is getting framed again as "phone calls", "calling records", etc. Bush is right when he says "We do not listen to domestic phone calls."
So they get to start playing the script for an affirmative defense, as follows.
There is no wiretapping or listening or datamining of conversations. We are collecting numbers, using pen trap registers, according to law. We are not invading privacy, because there is no 'reasonable expectation of privacy' for numbers on AT&T's network. That's the law.
The problem is, when phone conversations reach the backbone, they aren't audible. They are numbers.
Background
So when do they start 'monitoring' the flow of domestic mail looking for 'patterns'?
Ed McMahon better watch out!
Posted by snark at May 16, 2006 11:26 AMThis ends any prospect for judicial review of the warrantless wiretapping program as a practical matter, because no one will be able to know if they were wiretapped. Hence no standing to sue.
So much for the lie that KKKarl can't wait to run on the "terrorist surveillance program".
Will our Dems incessently point out the cowardice and hypocrisy and proclaim that this proves the Republicans KNOW the program is illegal? Or will they just assume that "everyone" will understand this without saying a word about it?
Posted by euzoius at May 16, 2006 11:26 AMSpecter must have "Fuck Me Dubya" tattooed above his butthole.
What a sissy.
Posted by God Of War at May 16, 2006 11:33 AMThis is proactive crime prevention strategy 'creep'. In a society supposedly grounded in 'probable cause', freedom from 'unreasonable search and seizure' and 'innocence until proven guilty'.
That's the disconnect that people seem to overlook here.
It stuns me how many people seem unconcerned by this.
Posted by snark at May 16, 2006 11:34 AMArlen Specter and Lindsay Graham are two of the more salient examples of Rebubs who will talk tough when they think the moment is right, but never take action. They might as well pack their bags and go home.
Posted by cali4nian at May 16, 2006 11:39 AMAs we all know so well, Specter is a slimey, spineless slug.
Posted by red_neck_repub at May 16, 2006 11:41 AMSpecter Caves Once Again
To quote the wise philosopher Gomer of Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
Posted by pessimist at May 16, 2006 11:41 AMBellSouth is probably FOS. Anybody notice the plethora of weasle words? For example:
"Based on our review to date..." which only means that the 'review' they did showed nothing. So what?! Who said the review was exhauastive, or even adequate?
"...we have not provided bulk customer calling records to the NSA." So? Did you provide to a third party who then provided them to the NSA? They don't say, do they?
"...we cannot find anyone within BellSouth who has ever been approached by the NSA." So you can't find them. So what? Where did you look? BellSouth isn't saying that either.
The denials are too carefully crafted. Something stinks. They are filled with loopholes and technicalities. If they didn't do it, why don't they just say so, plain and simple. When they feel they have to add all those qualifying weasle words, people know the real score.
Posted by oppressmenot at May 16, 2006 11:59 AMDid BellSouth split the laser light stream in their switches and channel a copy of the entire communications stream to NSA as is alleged in the EFF v. AT&T suit?
Posted by S at May 16, 2006 12:05 PMIn Bush's vocabulary, what does "listen" mean? Are they "listening" to telephone calls if the entire communications stream is filtered, sorted, indexed, and recorded by a Narus device?
Posted by S at May 16, 2006 12:14 PMHas the Left Coaster gone soft in the head? The Constitutional Republic does not have any friends in the Republican Party, and it's friends in the United States government and Democratic party have been spade, declawed, defanged and neutred.
When the Republican Party walks away with the 2008 election your protest will only be heard in a coffee house. History has warned you that the Cabal is stealing the Republic with the lights on and your ignorance is no excuse. Lying, spying, obstruction of justice, breaking the bank, and engineering consent are all tools of the cabal.
Posted by ROMAN at May 16, 2006 12:36 PMLying, spying, obstruction of justice, breaking the bank, and engineering consent are all tools of the cabal.
Posted by ROMAN at May 16, 2006 12:36 PM
*****
I like the way you think.
Posted by God Of War at May 16, 2006 12:56 PMSpecter caves AGAIN
Remember he wouldn't put Alberto G under oath when he was quesitioned. Why not put him under oath?
I think one of the key words to scrutinize is "listen."
Before there were recording devices, there were only ears. If you wanted to tap a line, it was for the purposes of acquiring information crossing that line.
Today, we don't have to "listen" (in the sense of ears-only attention) to a call in order to get information from that call; today's technology allows us to 'data-mine' the call, which includes recording every word spoken by either party and feeding those words into a database where other sophisticated software will examine those words, looking for patterns.
So in the human sense, they probably are not 'listening' in the conventional, ears-only sense but make no mistake: they ARE obtaining information electronically.
In today's world, the outcome is the same: the acquisition of information from a call.
The fact that no ONE person is using his/her ears to LISTEN to that call is irrelevant.
Posted by Richard Harlos at May 16, 2006 01:20 PMI've been waiting for someone to bring up this Big Orange diary - it's the best thing I've read on how data mining works, and I work in IT.
Essentially the value of the data is the numbers indexed against other databases and in geographic positioning.
Now I have data that I can relate to other data already in my possession: Geography. I can now match a phone to a physical address and look up in that data what is present at that address. A residence? I look that up in tax rolls and I know the property owner. (Be careful who you rent to!) A business establishment? (Be careful who you sell to!) I can track a cell phone over it's entire habitual path. Over a period of five years, I can tell you an awful lot about the owner of the phone. Does the phone end up in a public school five times per week and stay there all day? Probably just a kid going to school. Does the phone go to a mosque on Fridays and flight school on Saturdays? Could be a terrorist. Does the phone show up at protest marches and opposition party committee meetings?Posted by idiosynchronic at May 16, 2006 01:39 PM
Verizon is also now denying that they gave info to the government. Something really stinks in this one. How long until AT&T says they didn't give data to the NSA either? I mean, if they're giving the data to ChoicePoint and the NSA is contracting with ChoicePoint, then I can see how Verizon and BellSouth aren't culpable for violating anyone's privacy.....not.
Posted by ann at May 16, 2006 02:11 PMNone of this makes any difference. Pandora's Box has been opened, and our lives will never be the same again. From here on out we will be spied upon. Eventually the data that is collected will be used to separate those who will bow to a dictator, and those who will not yield. I don't think there is any return to sanity much less Democracy.
Posted by Judith at May 16, 2006 02:17 PMI think the story is true, I didn't see anyone in Congress or the WH denying it. Let's wait for Tice.
Posted by jerry at May 16, 2006 07:04 PMJerry, of course it's true. No denial by the WH, and no denial until today by the three corporations involved. It's not likely that USA Today would have run a story of this magnitude if they didn't have some kind of proof. It seems anymore that when anyone denies anything, you can bet the denial is a lie.
WASHINGTON - President Bush did not confirm or deny a newspaper report Thursday that the National Security Agency was collecting records of tens of millions of ordinary Americans' phone calls.
"Our intelligence activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates," Bush said. "We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."
USA Today, based on anonymous sources it said had DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of the arrangement, reported that AT&T Corp., Verizon Communications Inc., and BellSouth Corp. began turning over records of Americans' phone calls to the NSA shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
Bush said any domestic intelligence-gathering measures he's approved are "lawful," and he says "appropriate" members of Congress have been briefed.
The companies said Thursday that they are protecting customers' privacy but have an obligation to assist law enforcement and government agencies in ensuring the nation's security. "We prize the trust our customers place in us. If and when AT&T is asked to help, we do so strictly within the law and under the most stringent conditions," the company said in a statement, echoed by the others.
Now today, the statement has changed to NSA? What NSA? We don't know anything about some NSA.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1630576/posts
"The Congress has been briefed completely on this issue." G.W. Bush
Posted by Judith at May 16, 2006 08:25 PMidiosynchronic - wow, excellent info! i'm also in IT and have to agree with you that it's the best data-mining information i've encountered.
thanks for sharing!
Posted by Richard Harlos at May 17, 2006 06:53 AM