f th Lft s rdng th Bbl, y ght t t lst tk t t hrt fr yrslvs whl y'r skng ccsn gnst thrs.

To expedite my search for true Christains, I plan to bypass carlots, law and insurance offices, and the White House.

Of course bendito's post is proof positive that the right wing, whether self professedly christian or not, will never acknowledge how it betrays its religion at every turn. There has been a christian left since the beginning of christianity--technically, Jesus himself is the greatest communist and leftist of all time. It is rather the Benditos of the world who should look to their reading of scripture and examine their hearts. His vicious, cruel and often uncalled for postings have always been the very opposite of christian charity, let alone the opposite of thoughtful citizenship.

aimai

Well, Bendito, here is something for you chew on, my friend: Christianity, with its doctrine of humility, of forgiveness, of love, is incompatible with the state, with its haughtiness, its violence, its punishment, its wars.

Tolstoy said that.

I wonder if he was thinking of a "Republican Christian" form of government?

pess: Diebold has a line of very accurate "true Christian" detectors.

Here, I think, is the essence of the challenge:

[a] - Non-Christians observe a broad spectrum of behavior among those who label themselves as Christian;

[b] - Christians who believe themselves to be 'sincere', 'genuine', 'true', etc., do not wish to be mischaracterized as belonging to the same group of Christians whose beliefs and/or behaviors significantly differ from their own;

[c] - Every professing Christian believes that their current understanding, belief and profession is 'the way and the truth,' which results in a very segregated population who, despite their disagreements in doctrine, insist upon sharing a common label: Christian;

[d] - Since there seems to be very little progress in the sense of Christian integration among/between 'sects' of Christianity, it is virtually impossible for Christians themselves to conclusively assert which tenets of faith are 'true' and which are 'false';

[e] - When Christians themselves cannot reach a consensus on this matter, it seems inappropriate (to me) for them to confront non-Christians about their failure to distinguish between 'true' and 'false' Christians; better, I think, would be for the Christians to figure this out for themselves, unite around a single doctrine and then -- and ONLY then -- begin to reach out to the non-Christians with a message on how to tell the 'true' from the 'false'.

It seems to me that until [e] happens, Christians telling non-Christians that it's not fair to lump all Christians together is a subtle avoidance of, and substitution for, the Christians' own inability (or unwillingness?) to resolve their differences.

To me, it seems rather like a conservative Democrate complaining to an Anarchist that it's not fair to label all Democrats as being the same.

doh! That was bad, Tiki.

Old adage and hymn, pess - They'll know we are Christians by our love.

We will work with each other, we will work side by side,
And we'll guard each man's dignity and save each man's pride;

But I think you knew that. It also ties in nicely with Mary's post on Dominionism.

They'll know we are Christians by our Nude Dancing.

They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Ad Hominem Attacks.

And lastly, the talented RMJ of Adevntus has a bit on this issue.

Sorry id, I forgot you "curb" cars on the weekends for beer money.

Fundamentalist have been totally successful in painting us all with the brush of intolerance, and some of you have bought it. How sad. With the belief system of many on this blog, I am surprised that you allow me to post here. Okay, Christians are all ignorant, intolerant, unforgiving, uncaring, right-wing crazies. They are to be ridiculed, shunned, laughed at, made fun of, and certainly not to be taken seriously, but remember, you are going to need our vote come November.

If this is the face of the left, maybe I am in the wrong Party.

Sorry id, I forgot you "curb" cars on the weekends for beer money.

Actually I do that to support my computer habit and hang out with the likes of you.

By-the-way, there are millions of Christians out there in America who live their religion daily, help their neighbors, deliver food to shut-ins, visit the sick, give comfort to those who need comfort, give their money to aid those less fortunate, and try to live moral lives. Some even vote Democratic like my 85 year old Mom, but since you all seem to hold distain for those of us who call ourselves Christians, perhaps you don't need us in the Party. I thought intolerance was held for the GOP only, but evidently not.

According to Revelations, the apocalypse is supposed to last 7 years. Does that mean Bush will be "leaving" a year early?

Not unlike Democrats, Christians are like at herds. Beware those who enjoy preaching and believing in lockstep.
Judith, don't lose heart; I'm with you.

at herds = CAT herds

Gee Judith,
I think that's what they call over at Kos a "goodbye cruel world" post--its reads like a pathetic demand for attention. Did it ever occur to you that your professed Christianity was for its own sake and wasn't a social ploy to get love and attention from *complete strangers* who *don't actually know you?* Your petty whining that *you personally* aren't getting the respect *you deserve* for *your actions*--from people talking about *other people* and their specific actions is just childish. Many people who post here are, themselves, christians they just aren't parading it. Others, like myself, aren't christian but work with christians *every day* politically and socially. I engage in charitable works with them, I engage in social and political works with them. Hell, like many non christians my family is intermarried with them. To the extent they act like christians I've got not only no quarrell with them, but a deep and abiding love for them. I'm happy to never use the unadorned term "christian" again--I'm more than happy to substitute "so called christians" or "self professed christians" or something but the quarrel you should have is not with other posters here but with your own christian community which, frankly, would utterly reject you and your elderly mother *simply for being democrats* or for performing charitable acts vis a vis unapproved groups like anti war protesters or gays. As for the charitable things you do, I salute you for them (do you really need my approval?) I do all the same things without thinking I"m getting any heavenly reward for it, or asking for the approval of pseudonymous or anonymous posters on blogs.

aimai

Liberal religious groups registered 500,000 new voters, made 400,000 get-out-the-vote phone calls, and raised $1.75 million for newspaper and radio ads during the campaign. But he said the post-election poll found that 71 percent of voters had heard from the religious right while 38 percent said they had heard from the religious left.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38001-2004Nov9.html

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103

The Religious Left
It is fruitful and has multiplied.
By Steven Waldman
Posted Wednesday, April 5, 2006, at 12:41 PM ET

http://www.slate.com/id/2139365/

I think most people who say they are Christians really are -- except George W. Bush and his minions.

The problem is, there are Christians on the right, and Christians on the left. The Washington Post had a good article just yesterday about liberal Christians making a rise.

I go to church regularly, and I see people in the church who are not informed and who think that the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons are a bit fanatical, but are really harmless. They don't agree with everything they see on The 700 Club, but they watch it, because it's a Christian show. They don't know that there is a whole political agenda behind these people. They don't realize the courts are being stacked with right-wing extremists who are trying to make the Bible the law of the land.

Most of these people talk in platitudes, like I once did. They want us to be a Christian nation, but they surely don't want it legislated upon us. They want the Lord to change people's hearts. Bush says he is a Christian man, and they want to believe him. And Bush may consider himself to be a Christian, he's a religious fanatic, at best; an out-and-out liar, far worse. If people in my church really weren't afraid to look closely enough at Bush, they'd realize he's a liar and a thief. But, you can't convince them of that, and they're just going to have to be bitten by the poisonous snake before they realized they've been hoodwinked.

In Matthew 7:15-18, Jesus said:
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Sounds like a fine common sense approach to me.

Aimai, I have been on this blog a lot longer than you have, and I have read many more comments about "Christians" than you have, so spare me your supposed insightful comments, especially those that assume you know me and what my motivations are.

My point has always been that there is a Liberal Left block of Christian voters, and yet, time and time again, I find a very real distain for Christians on this Blog and elsewhere. I am sorry you missed that point.

By-the-way, you obviously read my post incorrectly. My point was that millions of Christians do believe in and abide by the ethics of Christianity, and practice their beliefs. I was not referring to me personally. To lump these people in with the far-right wing Christians (if you want to call them that) is extremely frustrating.

I am a Roman Catholic. That's right--even went through the procedures to get confirmation and become "a soldier of God."

However....I am not a supporter of the Texas- as well as southern-based Whackos who think we should have Dominionists running the show.

I do not agree with "Abu Graib" Gonzalez (who probably originally was an RC, if he isn't now) and his policies and opinions; I do not agree with the Supreme Court Justices Scalia and John Roberts when they attempt to eviscerate the Bill of Rights as well as Civil Rights in this country (I know the former is also a member of the Opus Dei group of boneheads--a grouping that should be shut down and permanently banned--nothing good can come out of a grouping formed person who was willing to work with a fascist Dictatorship run by Franscisco Franco, and then attempt to do its work in secrecy--transparency is always the antidote to corruption and ontic evil), and both of them are RCs....

YOu have to understand there are those who for their own purposes follow unquestioningly a corrupt and ontic-evil filled hierarchy (the Vatican has been in one place for 2000 years....I don't have to exaggerate on this point), and there are those who have an alternative viewpoint who believe in reform and evolution...for all institutions must continue to evolve, or they will die or become irrelevant (and then be shut down--same as death)...

As a "Soldier of God," I am obligated to question authority...I already have had run ins with all sorts of interesting priests and bishops when I went to meetings...I have been told nicely that I am a "prophet," (in that the meaning of the term is "speaking out"--which I take as a compliment) but I think that based on continued ancillary comments beyond that original comment is that they also mean that I am young and head strong and naive, etc. Which is bullshit.

Due to the poison injected into our Body Politic by the Dominionists and their Enablers (read the non-Closet Totalitarianists of the Rethuglican Party, or as I call it in general terms "The 'Fuck You America' Party" which is what it has now morphed into) our nation is in a full-blown "Illness Swoon" at the moment.

When a Nation is an "Illness Swoon" it does the things our country is doing. Domestically, INternationally.

Are there politicans with clear-headed thinking at this time in Washington, DC? Not many. Too many want to hold on to their perks (and that's all they actually care about--not solving problems before them--that's why you get this completely assed Senate passing of "English as the official language" of this past week)--which you and I don't get. The medical insurance coverage. The great exercise gymnasium that they have access to. The discounts on the meals that they eat at swank DC restaurants. The plying of free prostitutes by lobbyists (it appears that this is a common occurrence), and if you could believe the "Washingtonienne," the Rethuglicans to a person are into the most perverse and ugly sex acts--in which they express their desire to dominate--which is typical of Dominionists I think, and also especially of too many conservative politico-type people out of Texas.

The politics in Texas over its history is one peppered with whackos. I am certain if I would do a short Google search I could probably plaster a number of URL links here illustrating this, but for right now I am expressing a form of editorial here, so I won't bother doing that. I am certain others could come up with such documentation.

Just my two cents this morning.

pss, s t K t ffr smthng tht y dn't wnt t hr? Wll, th nly chsn f Jhvh's tht knw f fr crtnty tht s rglr t TLC s Bndt, bsd myslf.

J Mchl s nt prsntly shwng ny ndctns f bng n f th lct. Jhvh chs th lct prr t crtn, bng tsd f tm ths s nt dffclt fr Hm. shld mntn tht my blvd wf s nt shwng ny sgns f bng f th lct; nd w wr mrrd n th chrch 30 yrs g.

Th lct f Chrst kp Hs cmmndmnts, whch s th ntr Bbl. Thr r vry fw f s lft, bt, s w lrn n th Bk f Jnh nd Rvltn, thr s hp tht mr f mnknd wll srvv. s 'v mntnd n th pst, t pprs tht w r pprchng th nd f ths rlty, vn s th drknss pprs t b wnnng vrywhr.

n mr thng, th rgnzd 'Chrstn' chrch s s dd s th ncnt srl chrch. Jst s Jhvh bndnd th srl chrch t dmns, H s gvn th rgnzd Chrstn chrch vr t th sm. ll th chsn hv lft th chrch. Wh hs nt ntd th chrch bng ld by wmn, hmsxls/pdphls nd thr sympthzrs? vn th dmns f Blshvksm s thr lls f dsprtn n th rgnzd chrch, f nly bcs thy rn t!

Jim, you always know them by their fruits. If nothing else, that sentence alone tells one all he needs to know when one claims to be a Christian. George Bush can claim to be a Christian, but the fruits of his spirit have been lies, disception, falsehood, fraud, murder, and distortion. Hardly fruits of the spirit.

Scout, please understand where I am coming from, but your posts, sometimes, add fuel to the anti-Christian left, which certainly does nothing to bridge the gap between those of us who believe and those who don't.

One thing that is very true is that the mainstream Christian has sat by and allowed the wacko-right fundamentalist to define who they are.

aimai:
I think that's what they call over at Kos a "goodbye cruel world" post--its reads like a pathetic demand for attention. Did it ever occur to you that your professed Christianity was for its own sake and wasn't a social ploy to get love and attention from *complete strangers* who *don't actually know you?* Your petty whining that *you personally* aren't getting the respect *you deserve* for *your actions*--from people talking about *other people* and their specific actions is just childish.

It's pretty obvious you won't give a damn, but I just lost tons of respect for you, you snivelling slime.

The first part of that post was uncalled for. I've read just as many goodbye cruel world posts - maybe even more since I've been lurking around the nets since 1987 when they required a modem & a BBS. That wasn't even close to a 'goodbye but call me back before I break my heart.' That was someone genuinely shocked that our frontpage writer seems to be out to piss off anyone with claim of christian faith, fuck our common political goals.

To all at TLC. I rarely if ever go back on anything that I have posted on this Blog, but today I feel that I must say I am sorry for my first two posts. My harsh words were uncalled for, and in some ways, very unfair. (I posted before having my morning coffee).

Thanks Sharon.

Idio, thank you. You have read enough of my posts to understand where I am coming from.

Whoa, aimai, I love ya man, but you were rather harsh on Judith. We know her and she's not at all as you portrayed her.

I understand your frustration, Judith, but I like Richard Harlos' points above and this one in particular:

When Christians themselves cannot reach a consensus on this matter, it seems inappropriate (to me) for them to confront non-Christians about their failure to distinguish between 'true' and 'false' Christians; better, I think, would be for the Christians to figure this out for themselves, unite around a single doctrine and then -- and ONLY then -- begin to reach out to the non-Christians with a message on how to tell the 'true' from the 'false'.

Unfortunately, the Dobsons and Fallwells of the world understand (like the 'pukes) that if they put aside their petty squabbles, and unite in a larger bloc, they have a better chance of getting into enough positions of power to change the face of the constitution for decades. It's in the religionist's best interest to fire up the clash between rabid fundamentalists and the secular humanists. And while the fire's raging, they take the opportunity to drain more dollars from the treasury. It's all a big con. Kick the hornets' nest, and in the confusion, pick everyone's pockets.

Judith,
I apologize. My response was harsh and uncalled for.

aimai

pess, is it OK to offer something that you don't want to hear? Well, the only chosen of Jehovah's that I know of for a certainty that is a regular at TLC is Bendito, beside myself.

Don't look now, but I actually read the bible. I assure you, bendito and you are burning in hell. You think you've achieved the magic salvation, but you missed a crucial part of the book. I realize I'm talking to the walking damned, because you won't even consider what I said or look into your heart to see if it is true. Your postings prove this to me. That's how I know you willingly damned yourself. You two are abominations on earth and the walking damned. If I was standing next to you I would feel the evil emmanating from your soul -and see it in your dead eyes, and I would step away from you.

My harsh words were uncalled for, and in some ways, very unfair.

I've always thought you evidenced more of what I consider to be a "christian" attitude than many calling theirselves the same. When I read your first post I thought you might have a little hangover going from the last TLC jazz fest. I've never seen anyone do as many tequila shooters as you and still be able to stand upright.

One of the reasons it's difficult to identify Christians is because they aren't supposed to ostentatiously show off their religion. Read Matthew chapter 6. What it says is that you do not do good works, pray, or sacrifice in order to gain the commendation of others. You do these things in secret in order to please God. If you have done it to get others attention and approval then you already have your reward and God will ignore what you have done since you didn't do it for him in the first place.

It's easier to prove who isn't a Christian by an ostentious show of his so called Christianity than to know who is a Christian in other words. That's one of the reasons I am against public prayer and other showy displays of "what good Christian people we are, let's pat ourselves on the back and look down on the Atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc."

I read alot more into the Bible than is really there. For instance, I believe the story of the Good Samaritan, and other good non-Jews or enemies of the Jewish people are meant to show that everyone can be "Christian" or go to heaven. The intention counts for much more than the profession of faith. Too many Christians believe that taking Jesus as their personal savior only means mouthing the words and playing pious in church once a week. I think it is more likely that an atheist who actually acts in a Christlike (compassionate and merciful) way will go to heaven than those others. God/Christ makes himself available to everyone whether they have been proselytized or even heard of Christianity. Religion is a crutch for those of us who need guidance to be good, some atheists already have it and religion is unnecessary to them.

If Christians really wanted to convert the rest of the world, their example would be good enough. You wouldn't have to force it because others would see your goodness and happiness and want to be like you. The wolves have taken over the churches and that's why they have to force their version of Christianity down the throats of everyone else. Sensible people do not want to associate with hate, fear, anger, suffering, greed, war, etc and must be controlled or exterminated.

Judith, aimai is right. You're anger is misplaced. You should be angry with the wolves in sheeps clothing instead of the ones who wonder if the wolves are all their is.

sez idio: Old adage and hymn, pess - They'll know we are Christians by our love.

To elaborate: The central message of Christianity is one of love and forgiveness. Period.

Those who act mercifully and lovingly toward others—and especially toward those who don't "deserve" it—are behaving like Christians. Those who act as though Christianity is a set of specific moral condemnations of wickedness (and their numbers are legion) are simply practicing some other religion, and slapping Jesus's name on it.

sez pol: The problem is, there are Christians on the right, and Christians on the left.

No. There are Christians on the Left only. Jesus was a socialist. To ignore his command that we reorganize society such that we eliminated poverty is to ignore something fundamental to the religion. Those on the Right are not Christians. They practice a religion that the biblical Jesus would have criticized in the very harshest of terms.

If I was standing next to you I would feel the evil emmanating from your soul -and see it in your dead eyes, and I would step away from you.

I just use my nifty pair of RayBans that reveal the demon underneath the human suit. Then you don't have to get close enough to feel the simmering menace of self-righteousness.

Judith and Aimai. Good going.

Mary:

"Tell me which one of these men acted like a neighbor?"

"The last one(the Samaritan). The one that helped"

"You go and do the same".

That's what its all about. There's no reaching the point of "all knowing" like Falwell and company pretend. I keep running the race. I try to get better and better. God wants all of us to live large and trust Jesus to get us there. Man made dogma after those basic facts is of no concern to me.

Is it rough? Oh yeah because we're human. There's no Good Pill. Men like Dobson and Falwell have always existed. Using religion to con is old news but it doesn't stop what Jesus says and that's what many of us are trying to live by.

Shine like a light.

Check out Joyce Meyer sometime. She gets it.

"Hangover going" would be the appropriate term Phidipides. If I had only done shots of Casaa Noble (80 proof) instead of Herradura (92 proof), I might have not kissed everyone at the TLC Jazz Fest including trolls. What was I thinking?

Reading his words ast face value, we may deduce that there are people 1) who call themselves Christians and 2) whom J Michael does not wish to be lumped in with.

But it is not so simple as that.

Supposing him to be as fastidious as he says, then he is under a transcendent moral obligation to EFFECTIVELY repudiate any one who is speaking in his name against his wishes. If he fails to do this, then he has allowed his identity to be stolen from him. Let him leave the Church and denounce the Church, explicitly, forthrightly, comprehensively, and without rest: else he is a dilettante, without seriousness.

My point has always been that there is a Liberal Left block of Christian voters, and yet, time and time again, I find a very real distain for Christians on this Blog and elsewhere. I am sorry you missed that point.

Exactly why there needs to be a different term for far-right whackjobs. Whenever I talk about Christians in negative terms, I mean those on the far right who want to stop teaching evolution and want gays to just go away. I *never* just use the word "Christians" because of the whole lumping together problem. I always say "far right" or "fundamentalist" or "Christian whackos" (by which I mean those who call themselves Christian who are whackos, not that all Christians are whackos.) But even saying "fundamentalists" may be lumping people together. I don't care if someone is against abortion or gay marriage as long as they're not trying to legislate their views. So I really need a term for the people who basically spread hatred and intolerance and try to legislate it.

"You're anger is misplaced. You should be angry with the wolves in sheeps clothing instead of the ones who wonder if the wolves are all their is."

Donna, I join a very large group of people who are angry at those who, having been warned again and again, continue to follow the wolves. The scales from their eyes have not fallen.

I will agree that my post this morning was a very angry post, and I equally agree that my post did nothing to answer those who "wonder if the wolves are all there is." However, I have posted again and again and again that there is another side to this issue, and that we are not all the same.

CG, I call the extremists "godbots." It's modern, it's hip, and it differentiates between the cultists like scout and Benditto and real humans.

Oh, what a fun morning - all of the taboos (well, except sex, maybe I'll offer that into the fold [pardon the pun]): Religion and Politics.

The things that we don't talk about with people because we do not want inflamed emotions. That, I believe, is part of the problem.

If we don't open dialogue this dangerous shit that is going on will never be brought into the light of day. I don't think that most Christians understand that their religion has been hijacked.

Disclaimer: First of all, I have only been in Churches and Synagogues, excepting a couple of times, for weddings and funerals. I have never been Baptised and I feel no need to "choose" a particular label. I feel sorry for those who have the label forced upon them from infancy and never have the opportunity to actually choose what feels right for them.

It has been my experience, that those who truly have a relationship with a higher power of some sorts find it unnecessary to make that proclamation unprovoked. Their relationship is so real and so personal that it is second nature (or first) and never requires constant preaching or flaming exhibition of their religion with bumper stickers and t-shirts with such slogans as I am Christian, ask me how.

Judith and others here who spoke of their faith, this is not applicable, because you were invited to - it is the people who feel the need to constantly invoke their god into every conversation and talk incessantly about just how fucking devout that they are who I know, from experience, have no personal relationship with a higher power. If they did, these proclamations would be unnecessary.

I believe that the constant search for power and the massive amounts of ego that the far right has, and their endless fucking fear, is what has corrupted everything. If one truly had faith, they would not need to be so goddamned afraid of brown people and gay people and women and abortions and other religions and all other hate-filled bullshit that is preached from the pulpit of these megachurches.

Any god that I have ever studied has taught two basic premises: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and Love your neighbor. Period.

Boiled down more simply: Give Love

There is no other requirement. The rest is thrown in to gain power via fear and it is useless to me.

I believe that people who allow their preachers to fill them with hatred are complicit and must rise up against these falsehoods. I believe that those who do not understand that their freedom to preach this vile is based on the very Constitution and Bill of Rights which they wish to destroy are ignorant fools.

They may want to pervert it to make "Christianity" (or their form of it) the Law of the Land; but they do not understand that if they get their way, the next guy in charge might not choose Christianity for the State Religion...that is why the Constitution was written as it was, to protect us all from discrimination.

I wish that they would do less studying of their "Bibles" (which were rewritten by Constantine anyway, in order to gain the most control) and start studying real history.

Judith,
I apologize. My response was harsh and uncalled for.

Aimai, as was mine. Thanks. In the words of that famous but forgotten guy what's his name "can't we all just get along?" (smile)

Anjha, that was great. Kudos.

As usual, there are many excellent responses this morning on the subject. Perhaps we all have learned something. I certainly have.

Anjha, that was great. Kudos.

Posted by iamcoyote at May 21, 2006 10:43 AM

In the words of Billy Squire, "Stroke me, stroke me." I do appreciate your validation.

The only thing that I seem to be any good at anymore is ranting. Can one earn money doing this?

Religion is very personal. Keep it to yourself.

Oh christ, I had forgot to introduce sex into the discussion as promised: Benditto, go fuck yourself.

(Would hate to be thought of as someone who did not do what I said I would do.)

Anjha, the entire punditocracy makes its living by ranting. 'Cept they don't allow lefties. Nice use of sex, btw.

Jdth, prhps thr hs bn sm lrnng hr, bt nt Bblcl. Thr r mny cmmnts tht shw mny frms f Bblcl cnfsn cmbnd wth fw stns f dltd trth.

njh, bfr frgt, strck nr th trgt, n n tm, whn sh pntd t tht wht w dn’t tlk bt my cs dffclts. f crs, dpndng pn th lvl f mtrty, vrythng css n rgmnt wth ppl stsfd wth t mch fd nd bt f shltr t cll hm. (Ppl r vlnt: thy lv t fght, tc.)

Hwvr, thr s n sbjct tht ppl wll nt vr ndrstnd nlss Jhvh pns thr rs nd ys: tht’s th Bbl. Cnsdr th fllwng vrss (tht r rptd thrght th Bbl,)

Jhn 14:15. ‘f y lv m, kp my cmmndmnts,’ nd 23. ‘Jss nswrd nd sd nt hm, f mn lv m, h wll kp my wrds: nd my Fthr wll lv hm, nd w wll cm nt hm, nd mk r bd wth hm.’

Th bv tw vrss qckly cnnct th trms, ‘cmmndmnts’ nd ‘wrds.’ Th nxt vrs dfns th wrd, ‘wrd.’

Jhn 1:1. n th bgnnng ws th Wrd, nd th Wrd ws wth Gd, nd th Wrd ws Gd.’ nd ‘14. nd th Wrd ws md flsh, nd dwlt mng s, nd w bhld hs glry, th glry s f th nly bgttn f th Fthr, fll f grc nd trth.’

Th Wrd s th Bbl; w rd th Bbl t bd by th Lw, r cmmndmnts.

Thr s N SPRTN f chrch nd stt. Jhvh ntntnlly dsgnd th Bbl t b mpssbl fr nyn bt th lct t ndrstnd, fr H sys, thn H wld hv t frgv thm. Th sprtn f chrch nd stt s n ncnt wrldly cnstrct shwng dnl f Bblcl lw.

cld g n hr lngr, bt nly th lct, lk bn, wld cr t prcd. S, ’ll stp. ’ll chck bck fr lgt qstns.

Phd, y knw tht rcgnz y f fr nly yr blty t wrt cncpts wtht vrly dpndng pn chrctr ssssntn. Bt y r vry yng, nd rblls, nd y rfs t sspnd yr dsblf. Yt, pls lt m try gn: Th nly dffrnc btwn bn, m nd th nsvd f th wrld s ths: Jhvh ds nt s nythng vl wth th chsn. Gd clls ths cncpt ‘crcmcsn.’ Physcl crcmcsn s pctr f Gd cttng ff th nnt dprvty f th lct. Th lct r sprtd n ths fshn frm th nsvd.

Nw, rtcht pwrd 10 clcks n bstrctn. Th nly rsn th lct r nt pwrd p mmdtly pn bng sld n slvtn/’crcmcsn,’ s bcs th lct r t sty n ths rlty t d wht bn nd r dng: tll thrs bt th Bbl, fr tw rsns. Frst, t brng th Bbl t th nsld lct; nd, thn, t tll th nsvd tht fllwng Bblcl Lw hs mny dvntgs.

Fnlly, nn f th lct knw wh Jhvh hs ‘crcmcsd.’ Gd svd th lct bfr crtn; t s pssbl tht th ntr mdrn wrld cld bcm svd, jst s th ntr cty f Nnvh ws svd drng th tm f Jnh.

bt wtr bptsm. Smn md n rrr n ths tpc n th bv. Wtr bptsm s nthr pctr, n bstrctn, f crcmcsn. Th rl bptsm s th bptsm f th Sprt. Ths s wht s rfrrd t s th ‘brn gn’ xprnc, whch s ls vlgrzd by th nsvd chrchrs.

Thrght th tm f th chrch f ncnt srl, nd th mdrn chrch g, th chrchs hv bn dmntd by th nsvd. Ths r ls knwn s ‘hypcrts.’ Rvltn 2-3 spk bt th nsvd n th chrchs.

Thnks pss fr mkng m thnk bt Bblcl trths tht hvn’t thght bt n yrs. B dvsd tht knw f n n n th mdrn dd chrchs tht hv mr thn n nklng f th bv Bblcl Trths.

So basically, scout, you're saying that the voice in your head that you call "Jehova" went "word!" to some ancient caveman who interpreted it to fit his own agenda. Then that voice said I'm gonna let only a few people actually "get" it, while the others will never understand because it was written by some ancient monkey-man. But, just to let those non-elect know what they're missing, you're supposed to go out and tell them that you're part of secret club that the rest of us can never hope to join. Is that about right?

Seems to me the voice in your head is a real dick. But that's why you like him so much, right, scout?

cyt, y r plyng. Bt snc ths s pblc frm, wnt t b clr bt yr psychtc 'vc' ntn. Jhvh n lngr spks drctly t Hs prphts, r th lct.

Nw, H ds gd th lct; smtms w lk whr w'r gng, bt mst ftn w d nt.

Th bty f yr bv prgrph s tht yr ssmptns/blfs r sly pprnt. Bt thn, y d hv tht lttl Stn symbl n yr wb st; n n s srprsd.

shorter Scout: I am the truth, the way, and the light. The Upanishads also say in the beginning was "the word" (sound?,vibration?) but, "the word" was OM, not a literal book made of literal ink and literal paper wrtten and translated by literal MEN (and men only!) deeply influenced by a historical context (yes Henry, I know history is bunk), of the struggles between often contending desert tribes and warlords and tribal attempts to maintain group cohesion. Im starting to think Christo-exclusivist might be a better term for certain approaches to Christianity.

Scout - Who and what are "the elect"?

I actually prefer the term "New Pharisees" to Bu$hCo Chri$tians, since they have that level of holier-than-thou smugness the biblical Pharisees had, as well as the assertion that they alone can interpret Jesus' sayings. And that's why Jesus detested their principles most [although not them personally, it's important to remember that].

If by "playing," you mean "making fun of scout," well, then, yes, I'm playing. You offer a mishmash of religious dotrine, call it truth, and try to ram it down our throats as if your interpretations were fact. And you seem unable to comprehend that your exclusionary rhetoric is demeaning and insulting to just about every other group represented by the commentors here. It also appears you actually believe yourself to be some sort of prophet, and don't understand that your presentation is so ridiculous; you're more of a village idiot than anything else. (Like Benditto, actually)

Boil your message down and it's all "neener neener, I'm the elect and you're not" all the time. Gets tedious after a while.

jn, bfr crtn, Jhvh knw tht mnknd wld rbl. nstd f nt crtng mn, H prcdd wth crtn nd plnnd t kp smll grp f ppl fr Hmslf. Thr's lttl mr hr, bt th 'lct' s th sm s th 'svd' nd th 'chsn.'

Thrfr, bfr crtn Jhvh mrkd ch prsn tht H wld nt dstry n th lst dy thrght hmn hstry. n th lst dy, ll ppl cncvd wll b rsrrctd. Th rsrrctn s tgh fr s t ndrstnd, bt zr dffclty t Chrst (nthr nm fr Jhvh, wh hs mny mr).

Why nt kp ll f mnknd? Chrst plcs Hmslf ndr Hs wrd; n nthr wy, f H sys smthng s Lw, H s th Lw, nd fllws wht H s. Nthng lk hmn, s ppl wld mrly fllw thr prvrsns.

nywy, by fllwng Hs wn lw, Chrst ws gng t shw, whn ll th dst sttls, wht tr lv s, nmly, Chrst wll shw tht H lvd ths (th lct) vn whn thy htd Hm. Frthr, snc thy wr brn n dprvty (brght bt by dm’s rblln gnst Chrst) Chrst wld sffr th scnd dth, th sprtl dth, smthng w dn’t ttlly ndrstnd yt, fr ch f th lct.

Chrst lds ch f th chsn t th Bbl. s t pssbl t b nsvd yt rd th Bbl? Ys. nyhw, Gd ss vl tslf, smthng tht H dd nt crt, t brng th lct nt th crrct pstn f ndrstndng. Ths cld ccr t ny pnt ftr cncptn p t physcl dth.

Hw bt th mllns f ppl tht nvr hrd f th Bbl? Thy r nsvd, dmd. t’s Gd’s prgrm; ths mns tht ny ‘rwrd’ fr th nsvd cms n ths rlty.

hp ths dsn’t dd t yr cnfsn frthr. Bt f smthng dsn’t mk sns, sk. Bhnd ch f th bv cncpts r hndrds f pgs.

'll b hngng t bcs phd's wrkng n hr rspns, 'm crtn.

I had to ask.

cyt, th bv s nt smthng drmd p, bt s cmpltly Bblcl. Ths s wht Clvn nd Crmwll ndrstd t thr pnt n tm, n trms f prncpls.

Dammit, jondee - it's like inviting a vampire into the house! Once you've done that, you just know that sometime soon, you're gonna get pounced on. Don't you know that scout and Benditto are the elect? It's a very exclusive club. The rest of us are filthy, filthy humanses. scout's just here to rub it in like his head-voice commands.

Calvin and Cromwell. Say no more. Consider in the bowels of Christ you might be wrong!

jn, rlly, why d clf wrshpprs mprss y s? s t th hrns?

Coyote, Vampires are very sexy...I could leave the window open now and again.

The Elect Club reads a book written by a group of men for one man who needed it to rule and conquer the world; they interpret, as do any people who read anything, as it works for them.

Constantine brought the group of Bishops together because he needed a consensus book, that he could make law in order to collect money and have excuses to kill those who did not follow this one true book.

So, they voted, these Bishops. They voted on who would be god and could not really agree - hence the trinity - which worked well to mind-fuck people who really did not understand when there were so many different versions of what "Christianity" was.

Then the Bishops voted on which writings would be thrown out and which ones they would keep. A group of people voted on what would be the "word".

Then they burned all the rest of them. Anything not in Constantine's book was labeled "heresy".

It was all about power and control and greed. I really don't want to be part of that Club.

Scout - Why do cruel, narcissistic, totalitarians in the sky impress you? Is it because you and he are the same personality type? What are the odds?

scout, you're really making me look bad.

njh, Cnstntn ws bt th Rmn srvvl bt 300 D. Th Bbl ws fnshd lng bfr Cn dcdd t bcm psd Chrstn. nyhw, h lft th Cthlcs t th vrs Grmnc trbs, nd th Hns t n pnt, whl h scpd t Cnstntnpl. Thr ws shrt rvvl f th Rmn mpr bt 450 D, r s, f rcll crrctly, bt th mpr slwly wnt dwn hll ntl brd by th ttmns rnd 1320 D.

Bt dfntly Cn ws th typcl pltcl hypcrt Chrstn.

Dn’t b s sxst bt th Bbl. Rth, Nm, Db, Rhb, Phb, Srh, Rbcc, v, Mry, Mry, nd thr ws nthr, Mrth, nd mny, mny mr wmn wr plyrs.

CG, I call the extremists "godbots." It's modern, it's hip

Thanks, I like it. I'll have to use that from now on. By the way, most of the non-godbot Christians I know don't call themselves "Christians." They just say they're protestant or Lutheran, or Episcopalian, or Methodist, or Catholic or whatever. So, often, another way to identify the godbots is by their own label of "I'm a Christian", though it's not foolproof--I "know" someone on another forum who calls herself a Christian and isn't a godbot.

Scout calling me sexist. Now that's priceless.

You're right, CG, I've been hearing people identify themselves by denomination to avoid being labelled christian a lot lately, too. Still, although I believe in parallel universes and think I'm more likely to have my beliefs confirmed through science, I don't feel the need to announce it at every opportunity. It's deeply boring to the wrong crowd. The godbots are just so bloody sure they're right, and refuse to consider any alternative angle; and dammit, they want everyone to know about it!

Anjha, I laughed out loud when I saw that "sexist" line. Hilarious!

njh, yh, thght y'd gt kck t f tht; y t, cyt. Bt, s thr n lmnt f trth n my sttmnt?

No.

I might have not kissed everyone at the TLC Jazz Fest including trolls.

Hey. At least you beat scout at arm wrestling.

I'll be hanging out because phid's working on her response, I'm certain.

Sorry. Been trying to solve world hunger. I really don't have a response

But..why would you use John's ego driven description of how he directly descended from god, then ignore completely jesus saying there are many mansions in heaven and he is preparing "1" mansion for christians? So, there are lots of mansions and lots of people going. You seem to refute your own argument that you are somehow special or chosen.

On the last day, all people conceived will be resurrected. And that's why christan headstones face east, so you can face your jesus when he comes to the big cocktail party o' doom. Then Matthew 25:31-46 kicks in. Buh bye!

But your roaming interpretation of the bible is interesting. You grab everything in the old testament and run with it. Gen. 4:26; 5:3-8. So that's okay for your type too?

Anjha: Your 10:36 post could have had my name on it. Bravo! I did not really think you were a MCP, and apologize if I upset you with my too dry post the other day.

Praire critter's 9:18 post also excellent!

Last night I watched "Doomsday: Book of Revelation", on the NGC, and have bad news for scout. It appears as though he will not be catapulted up to heaven, while the rest of us get to enjoy 7 years of another republican trifecta.(apocalypse).

It was reported that there is no mention of the word "rapture" to be found anywhere in the bible. In 1830, British preacher John Nelson Darby formulated the concept, while reading the letters of Paul after drinking 4 bottles of wine.

Sorry scout, but if you still don't believe you are just comet crap, I gotta ascension robe I'd like ta sell ya.

phd, Jhn 1 s spkng bt Chrst, r dd mss wht y mnt?

'm frd dn't gt yr pnt bt Sth n Gn 4-5; lt m knw.

tk, w r n trbltn nw; t's 23 yrs, nt 7. W mst nt lstn t th wrng ppl, rght?

Th 'wht rb' s pctr f Jhvh vrlkng r nnt dprvty.

Wht ls y ll gt? hv ngh cff fr bt nthr hr.

Anjha: Your 10:36 post could have had my name on it. Bravo! I did not really think you were a MCP, and apologize if I upset you with my too dry post the other day. sez Tiki

Thanks Tiki, every so often I hit just the right combo of meds and post timing.

No, we had a good discussion last week. Made me think, I like that. Much more interesting than the constant grandious crap about how we are all lesser than creatures because we weren't picked out of the litter on christ's choosy choosy day.

Right now the History Channel has a thing on the "Free Masons" - time for me to grab my tin foil hat and get to work on learning more conspiracy.

Love this stuff. There really are so many possibilities for everything.

Jimminy Christmas!

I'm glad I missed geting caught up in this thread.

crp, snrk, whr y bn? t's rnng hr, nd hppnng n ths mst xcllnt f sts.

Snark, wait'll you get to the next thread, scout declares himself and Beditto prophets!

I glanced through the other threads. Some good laughs.

Boy, the ball's in their court. If there remain a lot of sensible Christians, it's time for them to come out from under their rocks. The unsensible ones have sure been "lumping" us!

jesus 2:20PM

I didn't know Jesus spoke English.

If Jesus spoke French, and had a Canadian passport, the world would look quite different.

Actually, true Christians are easy to spot as are false Christians.

For instance, who goes around accusing people of being "blasphemers, heretics and of doing the work of the devil"?

This is the key phrase that crops up throughout the history of the world and indicates whether a person is a warmonger or a follow of the Prince of Peace.

To clarify. Just before Jesus Christ was executed on the cross, his own religious leaders accused him of "blasphemy, heresy and of doing the work of the devil." Shortly afterward, Jesus was crucified.

Another example. Around 175 a.d., an Italian bishop by the name of Iraneus, accused all the other Christian groups of being "blasphemers, heretics and of doing the work of the devil." So, guess what happened to all the other Christian groups who believed in Jesus Christ differently than Iraneus? In just over a century, after the rise of the ultra-orthodox, male-dominated Catholic Church, all the other Christian groups were killed off and their own sacred Christian writings were destroyed. (Or at least, the Catholic Church tried to destroy all the sacred writings of the other Christian groups that didn't fit the Catholic dogma, and Catholic male-dominated hierarchy, found in the Catholic version of the sacred text.)

Anyway, this pattern continues to this day. The pseudo-Christian, the fake Christian, the warmongering Christian always accuses those they are about to censor with being "blasphemers, heretics and of doing the work of the devil."

Another point. Jesus Christ said, "What profits a man, though he gain the whole world, yet loses his soul." Jesus was describing the mindset of a monopolist. Ergo, any monopolist displaying this society-dominating, world-dominating mindset cannot be a true Christian.

Which must mean that the Catholic Church, in establishing their monopolistic, domineering agenda, stopped being a true Christian organization as soon as that mindset took hold. And the same holds true for Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority and Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition today. The evangelicals, with their monopolistic, domineering attitude toward American society, stopped being true Christians as soon as they adopted this monopolistic, peace-shattering mindset.

Which means, just as darkness settled over Europe during the over 1,000 years of Catholic monopolism, that a similar darkness is being proposed for the United States, but this time the culprits are a bunch of right-wing, orthodox, pseudo-Christian, monopolistic religious fanatics. Who, BTW, are making the same accusations against other U.S. citizens as the accusations made against Jesus Christ, that someone is "blasphemous, heretical and doing the work of the devil" in "their" society.

But as American citizens, we have a choice. We either let them drag us all down into their monopolistic, theocratic darkness, or we choose representatives for our Congress who will stuff the evil genie back into the bottle, God willing and Jesus willing...along with our free-willing.