I just heard another eastcoast media elite (Evan Thomas) say vis a vis withdrawing from Iraq that "we can't."
The DINO Twins, Hillary the Hawk and Joementum say the samething.
So does Bush, Cheney, Rummy the Dummy and Rice.
I still maintain we must and as Vice Predident Al Gore remarked over the weekend, we must withdraw this year.
But we won't. Bush needs the protective mantle of 'wartime president' to hide beneath.
Meanwhile, we're about 6 months short of the same length of time US forces fought in the theaters of World War II.
Feingold is on the bring them home wagon and I'm on Feingold's wagon all the way.
Posted by pissed off patricia at June 6, 2006 05:12 AMtest--lost several posts yesterday.
Posted by euzoius at June 6, 2006 05:36 AMThis analysis is quite timely, coming on the 62 anniversary of D-Day, June 6, 1944. It's also probably more extensive than anything the Bush team undertook as part of their occupation planning.
I certainly don't disagree with the points raised. But the citizens of Germany and Japan were also aware that they were aggressors in the war, whatever sophist nonsense and falsehoods their militaristic leaders had told them to the contrary, and thus they could see the justice of the occupations.
They were also well and truly defeated people, having beened bombed daily for four years into submission and hopelessness. And their military forces had been decimated and ground into dust, with millions of their soldiers killed, maimed or captured. And the Allies came in with enough force to bring security and order, nipping any rightist resistence in the bud.
Iraq?---not so much. They hadn't invaded anyone. The "War" was over in 10 days. Their Army withdrew and melted away as an intentional tactic. And the only thing our idiot "coalition" forces protected was the oil ministry---think the Iraqis missed that little fact in the shuffle? No way.
We came as colonial exploiters, and were immediately seen as such. This rest is now history. Our failed occupation cannot be turned into a successful one, no matter how the country turns out long term, or how much Bushco apologists and media supporters spin. Too much death and destruction, too much brutal indifference and arrogant incompetence.
Posted by euzoius at June 6, 2006 05:55 AMFeingold is on the bring them home wagon and I'm on Feingold's wagon all the way.
Posted by pissed off patricia at June 6, 2006 05:12 AM
What is with Wisconsin? First it is McCarthy and now Feingold !
What is with Wisconsin? First it is McCarthy and now Feingold !
Now there's a non sequitur anonymous smearing for ya.
I bet he wouldn't know a LaFollette if one walked up and kicked him in the ass.
Posted by idiosynchronic at June 6, 2006 06:12 AMI don't see Iraqis as the only political analogue here; that analysis could easily apply to Bush Republicans - a group of people who went along with their leader's irrational and overly aggressive actions and arguments, only to realize that they couldn't work in the real world, as facts contradict them, and opposition to him and his policies mounts, both domestically and internationally.
How are we going to re-integrate them into the reality-based community?
Posted by Chris at June 6, 2006 06:25 AMAnother point, in Japan and Germany the winners did not eliminate all the structure of society to start anew, the existing social structures were build upon, sure eliminating the most negative and radical exponents.
Posted by Harry at June 6, 2006 07:31 AMWould you take a directive to 'Get out of the way, Yankee infidel dog!' quietly?
Ask voters in Ohio when the Texan jackboots came up and blocked them at the polls. Ask the voters of Florida. They took the directive to "Get the fuck out of the way!" And they liked it. So much so no one is complaining.
If you didn't notice, America as you knew it ended in 2000. Odds are it won't come back. Too many are allowing the 9% of neo-con America to call the shots. As the wealthy suck the wealth to their bank accounts and off-shore investments -causing the economy to slow- the majority of Americans will trade their civil rights, retirements, health care, dental care and educations for some weird promise of "salvation" for America. That, and a big fucking truck that gets 9 miles to the gallon. A really big SUK-V? Baby, now that's freedom in the U.S.S.A.!
Posted by phidipides at June 6, 2006 09:00 AMGeorge W Bush and the AEI Interns didn't have a clue. Privatizing Iraqi oil. Flying in Christian Evangelists. Kicking Haji's Asses.
Even with UN approval, lots of Muslim troops, and real reconstruction, the occupation of Iraq would have been dicey. Without international approval, the Iraq invasion was doomed to failure when the first Abrams tank crossed the Kuwaiti border.
Spot on analysis.
An interesting side note, from my perspective anyway. When I was traveling in Europe during my college days back in the 70's we had the good fortune to stay with a couple of wonderful families in Germany. Both of the fathers had been POW's - one in Alabama and the other somewhere in Russia. The one who had been in this country pretty much liked his captors and was treated rather well and even learned English. The other who was a captive of the Russians actually liked Russia. Unfortunately, my German wasn't very good so I couldn't understand everything he was saying, but needless to say I was rather curious as to why that would be the case. His daughter who was our age (around 21 or so at the time) absolutely refused to translate being somewhat embarrassed about what her father had been involved in. Neither one of the fathers showed any anomosity towards us what so ever. They were drafted into the Wermacht and did their jobs as any solier would do.
I have always wondered what that conversation would have been like had she been willing to translate what her fathr was saying to me. I'm sure it would have been facinating to say the least.
As far as John Wayne goes, he was a coward. He refused to join any of the services at the time despite being pressured from his friends to do so. Evidently, after the war many of those same people ceased being his friend.
I agree with oozo, whatever the eventual outcome, this war was not worth it- even if we were all given a free lifetime supply of gas. NOT WORTH IT.
Marion Morrison was a right wing kool-aid dispensing chickenshit who ducked service during WWII to take acting jobs left behind by real heroes who joined up. John Ford denounced him for these actions.
His promotion of the Vietnam War was nauseating.
Posted by TIKI AL at June 6, 2006 12:14 PMid: I do not blame Iowa for producing John Wayne.
Posted by TIKI AL at June 6, 2006 12:25 PMJohn Wayne would draw the wagons in a circle. No no, that what Ward Bond would do. John Wayne would shoot their eyes out. No no, that's what Glen Ford would do. John Wayne would sing them a song. No no, that's what Roy Rogers would do. Whatever he did it wouldn't be original.
Now that lone Texas Ranger, George and his faithful English companion, Tony aren't very original either. The Indians had the real lone ranger and his faithful Indian companion Tonto surronded and closing in. Firing his last silver bullet the lone ranger turned to Tonto and said, "looks like we've had it Tonto." Tonto replied, "what do you mean we pale face?" When Tony says, "what do you mean we yank" it won't be original either.
Posted by Bill at June 6, 2006 02:34 PMNo war has ever been won without defeating the enemy's God. There is no stated attempt to defead Allah. The Muslims and rightly so expect Allah is the real target. They base their opinion on the fact that no war has ever been won without defeating the enemy's God. The problem to be solved is to change their minds about their God and get them to let it coexist with all the other Gods. There is no historical precedent for that so if it happens it will be a first. Peace cannot happen in Muslim land until they change their minds about Allah. Think they will? I don't and therefore I strongly suspect the war is unwinnable no matter what we or anyone else does either to or for them. The best that can happen is the usual cold and uneasy type time out from the killing.
Posted by Bill at June 6, 2006 02:45 PM"What Would John Wayne Do?"
Shoot Ann Coulter.
Bill, the 2 tribes worship the same God, isn't more of a 1 tribe wants their toys and power back?
I'll bet Sadaam could get a handle on the security problem, and kill WAY less than the current numbers in the process.
Maybe some countries need a 900 pound gorilla running them.
Posted by TIKI AL at June 6, 2006 04:45 PMpessimist,
As fundamentally wrong as this statement...
"Contrast this with the almost complete lack of resistance on the part of the German and Japanese populations once Allied forces occupied their nations."
...may be with respect to the current situation in Iraq, at least you are not beating the dead horse comparison to Vietnam.
Is this the new Leftist talking point / argument?
Posted by Bagley at June 6, 2006 06:13 PMIs this the new Leftist talking point / argument?
So, make your point. You're saying resistance in Iraq is decreasing, right? Moron.
Posted by phidipides at June 6, 2006 08:58 PM