i just heard from southern minnesota (1st district) tonight... the reddest of red minnesota districts - doesn't sound good for karl and his cadre of fascists in that part of the country - which may be bellweather for the rest of the country.

If the GOP somehow holds on to both houses of Congress without vote fraud

How would anyone know? Given what we've seen, voter-suppression is already in play, and there is absolutely no way to establish that nothing fraudulent happens with the machines.

If the GOP retains control of both houses, there is absolutely no reason to believe it is the result of anything other than the effectiveness of illegal means to prevent the votes of the opposition from being counted.

We've now seen two presidential elections in which the exit polls said one thing and the final tallies said something else - something which was "explained" as a tight-but-invisible GOP GOTV operation in which late Republican voters who no one ever saw suddenly surged into polling places at the last minute.

What will we be told if, again, voters say they voted for Democrats, but the machines tell us the Republicans won? And who will ask how that happened?

"How would anyone know? "

I completely agree with Avedon. We have now seen THREE elections which suffered obvious vote suppression, official malfeasance by one party's elected and appointed officials and completely "improbable" vote counts, which were contradictory with exit and all previous polling, by as much as 6%!

In any nation with a "Fourth Estate" which was not morbid, those facts would be enough to oveturn a government, or at least have millions massing in the streets.

If it happens once more, and the "press" accept ludicrous "explanations" for mathematical impossibilities, what are you prepared to do about it?

Rove assumes that the GOP's money advantage can overcome disgust of GOP incumbents.

I was under the impression Democrats had pulled even with Repukes in the ca$h department.

Is this not so?

I again to refer to Barron's magazine where the editors cite cash as the biggest factor in winning in (historically) 96% of their previous predictions--and they say Karl is right this time too. But vote fraud is still out there and I agree, nobody is going to be able to tell the winners with certainty. I maintain the cash advantage applies as much to the post-election court battles as to the run-up advertising, and that is where the Republicans will nail the Dems. They can fight a war of attrition in court.

stv, pprct th dpth f yr nlyss n ths pc.

How many elections can they steal without consequences? The problem, as I see it, is we 'allowed' they to steal our elections, plan and simple. It will be no different this time either. Americans need to draw perimeters on what they will and will not accept. Evidently stolen elections are okay with them.

The question again, is what will we do? I keep asking that question and no one responds. Does the Democratic Party have a plan in place? I doubt it. Will the American people stand up and protest the elections? Nope. So, once again we will wring our hands and cry how terrible it all is, and then go back to our blogs and TVs. Why not steal the elections when you know you can?

There is a good piece in today’s New York Times about a traditionally Republican suburb in Washington State and how many of the typical republican voters are turning away from a party they are disillusioned with. This has been similar to my experience in my hometown. Although I live in New York, one of the bluest of states, my locality is generally Republican dominated. I think the Democrat heavy statewide tickets may cause the local Republicans some pain this year.

Also in the Times today is a story about a town called McMinnville in Tennessee. It’s about how the lose of the manufacturing base is effecting small communities in the south. The story relates how John Edwards came to town during the 2004 campaign and how he promised to try and get NAFTA repealed. But, it goes on, once the cameras stopped, the politicians left and the tv reporters left and the jobs left. One guy at least gives Edwards credit for showing up. Interestingly though, no one ever mentions the fact that Edwards LOST THE ELECTION. Not one mention in the story of the fact that the Republicans who WON THE ELECTION have done nothing for any of these people.

Whenever I hear that the 'pukes were losing big in the polls, but now that the election is getting nearer, gee whiz, the 'pukes are gaining ground so it's a fifty-fifty dead heat, I think, "media pollsters and diebold to the rescue, here we go again...."

I think we should hold off on all the "Rove is a Loser" stories until after the election. As Yogi said, it ain't over til it's over. Two points: the polls in many individual races are very close, and someone at Kos pointed out that a good get-out-the-vote effort can mean 2 to 5 polling points. Also, I agree with the above commenter about the Barron's piece on spending.

I hate to say it, but this is beginning to have the feel of the 2004 election down the stretch. At the end, even I began to believe that Kerry might win. And whether the GOP stole that election or not, they're still in power. They may steal this election too, but it won't matter this time either. They'll still be in power.

Let's face it. Given how unpopular Bush and his war is, this should be a landslide election for the out party. But it's probably not shaping up to be that big of a loss for the GOP even if they do lose. If the Dems take the House by a narrow margin, that means Rove and the Repubs will have contained the bleeding pretty well.

Now I don't give all that credit to Rove and his machine. I give equal amounts of credit to the lapdog media and the stupid/gullible American public.

I'll tell you one last thing: if somehow the Rovians do pull it off and the Dems take a handful of seat but the GOP maintains control of both houses, you're going to hear that this was a reaffirmation of the Bush Way and all those icky bloggers were wrong wrong wrong. Then the GOP and the media will read the results as another mandate for the White House to do whatever it wants for the next two years.

So guys, please, let's wait on the Rove obituaries until the Wednesday after the election.

It is already clear that the GOP and Diebold will
steal the election so Dems should stay home and not contribute to global warming by driving to the polls. This election is no where near as
important as saving the planet. Show Washington that you disgusted with all of them by staying home and not voting.

KKKarl is the Josef Goebbels of the Authoritarian Party. He has had a very large hand in the destruction of our democracy and the creation of the "50% plus 1" method of governance, which has brought the nation to the brink of political civil war and has alienated very large numbers of Americans from their government and their democratic institutions. If Democrats do not win the election of 2006, our democratic system will essentially collapse.

KKKarl is also responsible for the Bushco practice of Politics driving Policy, which means that there will never be any real progress in America as long as Rove Republicans retain any power whatever. Party over Country, all politics all the time--that's our future, especially under Republicans.

He has exploited the numerous flaws and cracks in our federal system and the Republicans will use his election methods for decades, so things will remain this bad until voters catch on and repudiate Roveism (Ha-Ha!)

KKKarl has thus had an enormous role in tarnishing the image of American democracy so that it is now (rightly) seen as a highly suspect, greatly flawed system in most parts of the world. To the extent there was a worldwide movement toward democracy in the 1990s, KKKarl Rover's legacy is to have retarded and fatally undermined it by making our American democracy a worldwide laughingstock from 2000 on into the indefinite future. Do you think the rest of the world has any confidence in our elections and the wisdom of the American voter anymore?

Right now, large numbers of Americans have no faith in their democracy, no faith in the integrity their elections, and many are starting to see that the future is not very rosy for the beacon of democracy.

Right now, very large numbers of states present "voters" with touch screen machines that simply deposit electrons onto electron storage devices. No state government has any idea what the various electrons are doing or how or where they are going when the "voter" touches his screen.

These machines "malfunction" all over the country, the poll workers don't know how to repair them, and, hilariously, often don't even know they are malfunctioning or when their storage devices are "full". Thousands of votes have been lost this way. No judge can determine what ballots were cast and for whom.

This technology was completely unready for national deployment, and all election systems experts were well aware of it, yet the Republicans (for some reason) insisted on favoring it when they created HAVA in 2001. Democrats largely supported HAVA, although they have lately attempted to amend it to require a voter inspected paper record, which (for some reason) the Republicans have completely (and successfully) opposed. Again, politics over policy.

So you decide what kind of confidence a rational brain could have in the final tabulation.

The only way anything would change with the current appalling situation is if Dems somehow won a national election. Then KKKarl and Team would start vilifying their previously utterly trustworthy black box technology, pointing out all of its manifest flaws, get the corporate televised media on board (of course), generate outrage in the public and seek to have the election nullified in the federal courts. But that's Plan B.

"but, I know that I am most certainly correct in Biblical understanding." Posted by Scout

Scout, I can't let that statement pass without a comment. No one, including you, has complete "Biblical understanding." It is statements such as this that strikes fear in the hearts of mainstream Christians. It is statements such as this that causes wars and hatred. Anyone who says they are "most certainly correct in Biblical understanding," is a fool.

Don't worry manapp99, you authoritarian stooge, most Lib'ruls live within walking distance of their polls.

And we want a heavy Dem turnout so Rove's vote supression tactics are made clear to the rest of the world, and his machine tabulation theft is manifestly apparent to anyone with a non-poisoned brain.

Euzoius, I agree that we need to get rid of the voting machines. What we need is a return to the butterfly ballot, you know, like the ones in Florida designed by Democrats that other Democrats could not figure out and got GWB elected in 2000. It wouldn't matter if votes were done with the Vulcan mind meld, you guys would scream voter fraud if a Republican wins.

The key to Rove's assumptions is his belief that his vision of the country represents the common man's vision. That couldn't be further from the truth. Common folks may be religious to a degree, but they are not Born-Again Ferverts. They are not crooks and they are not liars, and futher, don't appreciate being manipulated by crooks and lied to, repeatedly, by liars. His delusion is that the country has bought into his vision and that is not true. That is the reason that the last few elections he has overseen have barely scraped out a win, and contested wins at that.

"It wouldn't matter if votes were done with the Vulcan mind meld, you guys would scream voter fraud if a Republican wins."

Manapp99, then stop stealing elections and we won't scream voter fraud. Why in the hell do you think it is an issue in the first place? Let's see, could it be that voter fraud and theft has been proven to be true? You have been caught honey. Speaking truth to power is a bitch, isn't it.

Manpp99 admits (and thinks it's a laugh riot) that flawed election technology caused Nero's "election" in 2000, implicitly acknowledging that he wasn't the candidate that the Florida voters wanted, yet he "won" the state. Thousands of Gore voters miscast their ballots in 2000 thanks to the butter-fly ballot. Nero "won" FL by 500 votes or so.

This is the new authoritarian mindset in full view. Voter intentions were utterly frustrated, and our system radically failed us, and he laughs it off as the "fault" of the Dems in FL. You can bet that he is delighted that election machine technology---a technical subject if ever there was one---has now been turned by Republicans into a bitter partisan battle.

BTW, Republicans were the ones who spent years complaining about vote fraud. We're new to the game, thanks to Rove.

Well, the trolls are out this morning (scout started last week - early bird) with their last ditch efforts, I'm sure we'll see a lot of 'em this week.

But the manapp has a point - though it's just like a 'puke to think cheating is cool as long as his side's the cheaters - just keep yelling about how the votes won't be counted, and you'll see a lot of people stay home. Changing the voting system is local. Stop yelling at Rove (who gives a shit about his legacy?) and keep pounding on the doors of your local rep.

Rove is considered by his employer's as brilliant
what he does is often illegal, but one of those things that will take years to find out about, so his owners are happy with a deferment.
So, what does this tell you? Rove is good at hatred, bribery, manipulation, theft, breaking every law he can.. etc...

the problem is, we don't want a political system like this. time to end itd

You guys are a trip. euzouis does not get the irony of your complaints of election fraud. True that the GOP has complained about election fraud, check out the 1960 election of JFK, but unlike the Dems, did not spend months in court and years after crying that JFK was pres. But the vote counting is being reformed BECAUSE the Dems compaints over the 2000 election. Now you think the machines are stealing elections. By your own reasoning, if the GOP was able to steal the 2000 election with butterfly ballots created by Dems and misunderstood by Dems, then stealing 30 or 40 local elections with the new Diebold machines should be a snap. I am not stating that the GOP indeed DID steal the election, any election, I am pointing out that you nuts believe it, therefore on Teusday Nov. 7, there is no reason for you to go to the polls. You can stay home and start the blame game online as you THINK the outcome is rigged. What if the Dems do win? How will you float this election fraud issue in 08'. It is better that you lose this one so you can reuse this issue in the presidential election in 08.

oldtree, it doesn't take brilliance to be without conscience and play dirty. All it takes is a hatred of We the People, and a willingness to do anything the undermine the Constitution in order to rob the treasury. Rove will be thrown under the bus if the 'pukes lose this one, just like anyone else who can't deliver what the Cheney admin wants.

Kerry is still sitting on some good million(s) in campaign funds specifically for legal vote challenges and post-election stuff, no?

I sure hope you are right

Flamethrower, Kerry had that money in '04, didn't he? We saw how much he used it to fight then. 'Course, if he's got '08 aspirations, he might put up a fight this year to show us he's serious this time.

No, it would be better for Democrats to win "this one" in 2006, so they could pass effective election reform legislation supported by neutral systems experts (which Republicans oppose), so an American concerned about the integrity of our elections could have faith in them again.

That would be the non-authoritarian, non-game playing, competent government solution that would constitute actual progress for our country. By definition, manapp99, you and your "party" couldn't support such a thing.

The machines don't work by magic, people. The only way they get away with it is if people feel sorry for themselves and don't vote, and don't speak out.

The more that do, the better things work. Demand a paper ballot, and make sure it isn't a provisional one, and tell the poll workers that you cannot rely on the veracity of the electronic machines in a loud voice as your reason, not that you need a reason, it's the law.

Vote absentee if you must, but that cuts down on the number of people swamping the polls in a wave of Democracy, so I'm not the biggest fan.

Watch the machine you're voting on if that's the way you go, and if you see something funny, demand they pull it out of circulation. And somebody in lines grumbles at the delay, ask them if they want their franchise counted correctly or not-do you want your vote to go to the guy/gal you despise by mistake?

Screw the machines, get out and vote and bring a couple Democrats with you!

Boy, you people...Did we steal the 94 election? 1996? 1998? Same results, why not? How could we when we're not in the Whitehouse? How about 1980, did we steal that one? Maybe we stole the 92 election and just didn't get it right? Think about how many poll workers would have to be duplicit in any attempt of voter fraud.

To my knowledge the only recent voter fraud convictions have been around the St. Louis and Milwaukee areas and were Democrats or Democratic organizations. Then there was what happened in 2002 South Dakota that defended Tim Johnson's seat. The legistlature had to correct many things so the same techniques couldn't be used to save the Majority Leader's job in 2004.

Then there's the Democratic primary in Florida. Janet Reno's on the ballot and the vote had problems just two years after the debacle of 2000! The primary in Tx-26CD, Rep. Ciro Rodriguez verses Henry Cuellar. Democrats counting Democratic votes, just couldn't get it right. And we're the problem still.

That Conyers investigation was a sham. even CBS noted it as one.

Look at the 2004 turnout, most ever for both parties. No, that couldn't be from American's interest. Just had to be fraud. Listen to the message you people keep sending. Keep this up and no one will have any confidence in the outcome of any election. Is that what you want? We can't win anymore so their election won't be valid. You're just about there already. What did I see out there, some 29% don't believe in the vote anymore. Along with voter apathy, your message is driving us down this path. ALGORE should never have contested the 2000 vote. Sure, he had a legal right. Sometimes, doing what's legal isn't always whats right. Shaking the confidence of the vote isn't right. Creating the doubt in people's minds isn't right...that's third world thinking.

Keep it up, Democrats are driving us there. Leading us to a third world mentality.

You go, Duckman. It appears the folks in Broward County are already watching their votes change on the screen.

Look, it has already started: Go to Drudge and see the story about the machines in Florida. Believe me folks, there is no point in going to the polls.

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N, tr Chrstnty s smply bt sprdng th gspl, nd nthng mr.

nd, Jdth, b dvsd tht w r nw n prd f fmn, sprtl fmn. Ths mns tht vry fw ndrstnd Bblcl cncpts. Whl ths hs bn tr snc bt th lt 80's, w nt tht thr s nthng nw, n trms f Bblcl ndrstndng, bng tght n s-clld mdrn Chrstn chrchs. Thy r tchng th sm flty cncpts f th 19th Cntry. Thr fllwrs, ll hypcrts, rfs t thnk thrgh th Bbl, s thy r qt blnd nd df, bt smply mmc thr dlzd fls pstrs.

Ths, w nt, th 'vnglcls,' ll hypcrts, plcng nt pwr lttl mn, WL, frd f flyng F-111's, brn wtht sns, nd lttl ndrstndng f mch bynd th prc f l, nd srrndng hmslf wth scl drlcts tht sps trtr nd ftn clm frgn cntrs s plcs f brth. Jst thnk, th fls 'Chrstns' vtd nt pwr tw dsgstng Stn wrshprs tht ht ppl s mch tht thy wnt t trtr thm ftr lckng thm p fr yrs wtht trl by prs.

Hr's hw w nt th mystry f chs: w hv th Stnsts rnnng DC, yt w hv Stnsts, lk cyt, cllng thr sns f dstrctn 'crrpt.' Ths s why hs dvdd cn nt stnd. yh. Hw'd y lk m nw, cyt?

Beat you to it, manapp. Shouldn't you and petey be following the latest talking point about Chavez? Check your fax machines, guys, you're working off old talking points.

Sure show we're not working off anyone's points doesn't it.

Peter, you can't be serious. All those logical points you make are not for this site. This is the home of the new third party. The Tin Foil Hat party. Everything is a conspiracy here. Or maybe the Alice in Wonderland party where up is down and down is up. Go back and look at the posts, iamcoyote thinks it is the Cheney administration. To these people Rove (who has not even been charged with anything) is clearly a criminal and in charge of Bush. This is not a site where the truth is needed, or perhaps even welcome.

Duck, everyone, scout's gonna start flinging the rattlesnakes in a sec!

Nah, petey, just shows you're not getting your paycheck this week.

That's okay, I do this for free coyote. Why get paid for being an American.

peter,

Are you here to tell us all about the limits of normal foreign policy dialogue today?

And why should anyone have an objection to our elections being held with machinery that provides a physical verifiable paper trail?

Snark, I am not Peter, however, no one is against elections being held with paper trails. Where have you read that anyone is against this? On the other hand, why is anyone against showing ID to prove you are eligible vote and are who you say you are?

Whatev, manapp.

Check out teh newbie, snark. Just outta troll school, and he wants to play.

Back to the topic before we were so rudely interrupted - has anyone been reading digby?

The fact that the government is investigating Hugo "sulphur" Chavez's alleged interest in election machines may very well be part of an emerging post-election GOP narrative. I have believed that Republicans might claim vote fraud in this election for some time.

digby's got a point here that dems should be prepared for. dig's been emphasizing for a while that if the dems win, the mighty noise machine will go into high gear, because being an opposition is what they're good at, not governing after they've drowned out dissent. Especially now that it's getting odious for even the most hardcore rightie to continue defending Nero's failed government. If you think this shrieking from the right is eardrum-piercing now, wait'll you see what happens if the dems actually win.

Why get paid for being an American.

By all means, enlist, you're missing your chance to be a real American, petey-pete! We need you on the ground in Iraq.

Where have you read that anyone is against this?

There has been much resistance to providing electronic machines with paper trails. Many states that have been using the electronic machines are now changing their election requirements to mandate that machines have paper records.

On the other hand, why is anyone against showing ID to prove you are eligible vote and are who you say you are?

As I have stated before, I have no objection to the requirement that one show valid ID to vote. The incidence of voter fraud by people voting multiple times under multiple names is almost undocumented. There is a problem with districts keeping their voter roles up to date. But the fact that there are thousands of dead or relocated voters still on the roles does not mean that those people are actually casting votes. If state issued ID's are going to be required they need to be provided free of charge by the state and the state should have the onus of ensuring that every legally registered voter obtains one.

It should be the desire of everyone in this country that every citizen legally eligible to vote should vote. Anything that makes it easier for people to exercise that right should be considered.

If state issued ID's are going to be required they need to be provided free of charge by the state and the state should have the onus of ensuring that every legally registered voter obtains one.

They also need to make it easier to get an ID. In Chicago, it took over an hour for a simple change of address and renewal with no written or driving test. The wait at the non-express facilities is hours and hours. Hard to take an entire day off from work to get a state ID sometimes.

My goodness. Don't manapp99 (I last saw that "manapp" on the wall of a New York gay bath house next to the hose) and peter have a huge problem! Conservatism failed like cardboard wings on a jumbo jet -didn't even get off the ground- and they are here supporting election fraud. Supporting it! How droll!

These two semi-tards are the epitome of the republi-con party and conservatism as we have seen it expressed since 1994. They came in on accountability and change and are going out on incompetence and semi-literate Page groping. What a bunch of knuckle-dragging white trash fascists! It is too fucking droll!

They didn't have a plan 12 years ago and it went downhill from there. What have they accomplished? Ruination of the finest military in the world. Remember at the start of Afghanistan when Iran was offering to end portions of it's nuclear program? What happened? Conservative incompetence. No one, not even Hezbollah perceives us as a real threat. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! What about the deficit? $43 TRILLION in new long-term debt since 2000. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! What about health-care? Medicare fraud to enrich corporations. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! Education? Slashed. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! Veterans benefits? Slashed. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! How about big business? $1 trillion in corporate welfare. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! How about the Constitution? Bill of Rights nullified by stripping Habeas rights. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! Compassionate conservatives? Legalized torture. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! 9-11? Ignored threats before the act itself. Way to go, CONSERVATIVES! The list of incredible incompetence is a long one indeed.

CONSERVATIVES! Fraudulent scams, incompetence, and inability to govern. You fucks are failures! Big fucking failures! Conservatism failed. Get it? CONSERVATISM FAILED! CONSERVATIVES ARE FAILURES! History will record you as a pack of clueless miscreants who elected the single worst Congress and president in United States history. Even the general population knows it and no one had to tell them. They have to live through it. Conservatism failed, and it goes on the ash heap of history right next to fascism. And the leaders of conservatism will always be linked to nazis. And so it should be, you fascist war-mongering war-felon ass clowns. Conservatives are big fucking failures. You may get an election, but you can't do anything except completey fuck-up everything you touch from there on out. Your incompetence preceded your governance.

"This is not a site where the truth is needed, or perhaps even welcome."

Then Maggiepie, why are you here? Go someplace else where you are appreciated, because it sure as hell isn't here. You too Peter, Peter, the bullshit eater.

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Jdth, jst ht t whn y ct chldsh:)

ann, you're right about the wait. It's a major deterrent. And keeping the voter rolls current shouldn't be a difficult task anymore. When my office moved, every vendor in the country called to sell their wares - same with my new home. If they can update their files, certainly the voting office should be able to. Still, I can understand how dead people can be on the rolls years later. When a friend died a while back, I was the executrix, and I had to send copies of the death certificate to all her vendors. I'm sure I didn't get them all, as I'm sure I didn't inform the voting board. How many other people die without someone like me to tie off those loose threads?

Hey, p-dip, conservatism didn't fail! It's been redefined as "adapting to not win." Get with the program.

It's been redefined as "adapting to not win."

CONSERVATISM. ADAPTING TO NOT WIN!

phd, y'v md s mny pwrfl hts, nd n trgt. Bt s tht y? Y gt ll mn nd nsty.

Nw, y knw tht th dms r jst s glty f mny f yr pnts. Thy ll wrk fr th sm crps; w mst rmmbr tht th DC whrs nd Whrmngrs, n bth sds f th sl rbbr stmpd vry sngl frgn nvsn snc WW, nd 'm nt tlkng bt vrs crp strtgs t tk frgn rw mtrls thrgh smply plcng nt pwr frgn rlrs nd kpng thm n th pyrll, whl thr wn ppl sffr.

S, ys y'r rght, nd ttlly gr, bt w mst lk nt tht mrrr nd msr r wn flshnss, t. Fr t tk bth prts t gt s nt th crrnt sttn f nfmy.

good gawd...what a thread.

The trolls are just getting dumber and dumber, aren't they?

The contradictions in their arguments (heh, if you want to call their mindless spittle an argument) are so bizarre.

"If the elections are stolen then there is no need to vote."

If it is raining, no need to put on a jacket. You are going to get wet anyway.

Goofs.

And what is the nonsense about "don't vote if you care about global warming."?

Oy.

We absolutely must get as many people to the polls as possible. Slim margins are easier to steal. And, if anyone gives a shit at all about the environment we absolutely must kick these assholes out. The conservatives (whatever the fuck that means) cannot see a day ahead to plan for anything, certainly not the environment. Besides, no need to preserve (conserve?) the environment if the rapture is going to come and take them all home anyhoo.

Progressives understand the commons and we understand that we all must be responsible for and contribute to the commons. (I never hear a Progressive complain about taxes; we understand that we all need to do our part for clean air, clean water, public roads, public schools, parks, taking care of those who cannot care for themselves, etc...)

The most important part of the commons is our vote. Our vote absolutely must not be allowed to continue to be privatized. Period.

Our vote is owned by private corporations with proprietary software and we have no way to verify it. This is bullshit and must be the first thing to change after the Dems 100 hours plan.

Vote. Vote. Vote.

and then do everything possible to ensure the count.

They are lining up ready to round us up if there is an uprise and/or to somehow make the stolen elections their issue. We need to be out ahead of them.

America, and everything American, is Liberal. This Country was founded by Liberals and the Constitution is a Progressive document. Without Progressive and Liberal Ideals and Ideas there would be no America for you "conservatives" to destroy.

Conservative is Anti-American. It need not be defined, that is all that anyone needs to understand.

Conservative is Anti-American.

Okay. I could be a bit rough on the failed conservatives. They actually accomplished the things they want. Let's review (adapted from Josh Marshall):

Government support for fundamentalist mores and values on sex and marriage: Okay, they did that. Yet, few people appreciated having their sex lives put under a microscope by the feds. Indeed, people don't think it's anyone's business what adults do in their bedrooms. And Mark Foley (a pitiable closeted homosexual at best) shows that the republi-cons ignore their own transgressions to maintain a house seat. The epitome of "do as we say, not as we do" politics.

Aggressive defense policy: They did that and ignored decades of diplomacy. The result has been the emasculation of the finest military in the world and our ability to project power and constrain foreign governments. The organization they reviled in 2000, the U.N., is now seen as their only salvation.

Privatization of government services: That medicare drug policy is working like gravel in a manual transmission. No bid contracts in Iraq are just ducky. They got unbridled corporate enrichment and failure to provide appropriate and needed services.

Regulatory regimes and a tax structure favoring big business and the wealthy: Did it. They got massive deficits and the off-shoring of the manufacturing base.

Conservatism. 30 years of abject failure.

Now, you know that the dems are just as guilty of many of your points.

No, Scout. We are not. We have had thirty years of conservatives promising smaller government and balanced budgets. Instead we got massive deficits and ballooning government, and the shredding of our hard won foreign policy and economy. The only attempts to balance the budget and shrink government have been made by the Democrats, Clinton especially. Period.

Conservatism is a failed ideology that is leading to a fascist state. CONSERVATIVES ARE FAILURES! Conservatism failed.

Judith, there are a few places to visit for info on post-election planning as well as numbers to call to report election fraud.

Vote 411

Democrats dot com

Velvet Revolution

Oregon Voter Rights Coalition

....

a couple more...

51 Capital March

and I have a couple of posts up Judith with orgs re: election integrity

Who does a loss really hurt?

You only think you have the right to vote.

Right on Anjha, thanks for the links!

Conservatives are LOSERS! How's that, scout?

101 dead in Iraq.

Conservative failure equates to more commas in history.

Maryland Push Poll call on behalf of Republican Steele-got one today: Do I want medical research on unborn babies? YES-I screamed into the phone to the Repug framing of the embryonic stem cell research issue. What a disgusting excuse for an American political party.

ELECT DEMOCRATS TO CONGRESS

Come on!

If those soldiers weren't dying in Iraq they'd be back home here dying in traffic accidents!

Get a grip!

Better that Rove lose BIG than be indicted by Fitzgerald. Only a huge loss will limit the use of Rovian/Republican gutter political tactics. Voters must send them a message. GET SMART AMERICA-throw the Republicans out!

Can't have those soldiers affecting the rolls of the Veteran's Administration! Cheaper for them to die!

1993 1213 members of the military killed.
1994 1075 members of the military killed.
1995 1040 members of the military killed.
1996 974 members of the military killed.
1997 817 members of the military killed.
1998 827 members of the military killed.
1999 796 members of the military killed.
2000 758 members of the military killed.

All during supposed peacetime. Many within their bases.

From your friends over at MYDD...
"Senate Democrats and Bill Clinton Stab Us In The Front

by Matt Stoller, Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 07:15:06 PM EST

The Democratic Senate leaders will sell us out at every opportunity, be it torture, Iraq, Alito, Lieberman, the Bankruptcy Bill, or stopping war with Iran. They aren't poll-driven, they aren't fear-driven, and they aren't driven by strategic differences. They are simply driven to beat us down, their voters, by any means necessary. That's why they cheered Joe."

These are the people you wish to place your hopes on? This is why Democrats should be elected? Lets elect more senate Deomcrats so that Joe can become a committee chairman.

If those soldiers weren't dying in Iraq they'd be back home here dying in traffic accidents!

Whew! Thanks for keeping me grounded! I forgot that.

Which neo-con moron said that idiotic statement, Snark? Bag-bot? Tough to remember when the only thing out of their pie-holes is lunacy.

All during supposed peacetime. Many within their bases.

Why, look! There's the endangered conservative tard-bot pulling his head out of his ass to see if he sees his shadow. Something about 2 more years of incompetence if he doesn't. Sorry, the light of day is on your incompetence and failed conservative ideology, tard-bot.

"Deaths from car wrecks and illness equals death in a war!" Is that the best you can do? Come the fuck on, YOU conservative failure. At least make a plausible argument. Give us a bone here, ass clown. You even fail at commenting on your failures.

CONSERVATISM: THE INCOMPETENCE AND FAILURE OF A FASCIST IDEOLOGY.

peter

what in god's name are you ranting about..seriously..are you out of your fucking mind or what..it's one thing to have a point of view...quit the fucking drival..it gets real old get lost

what in god's name are you ranting about

What he is saying, dennis, is that these are poor kids from the red states and that their deaths don't matter. He is the kind of jack-off who won't go over there and thinks he is supporting the war effort and soldiers in a "different" way. I've met lots of them.

peter,

What those numbers that you posted don't account for is that the size, in personnel, of our armed forces has decreased dramatically since 1980 and that increased safety efforts have drastically reduced the rate of deaths caused by accidents. But a simpleton such as yourself wouldn't think about anything beyond the first number that showed you what you want to believe.

This chart clearly illustrates the increasing mortality rate of our armed forces members under George Bush.

I'm still interested in the limits of normal foreign policy dialogue. Nothing from you?

So petey, what you're saying is the deaths in Iraq don't mean anything because soldiers die in peacetime, too? Hmm. And while you don't link to your source, we can assume your statistics are concerning accidents on base and the like. So are you saying that since soldiers die all the time, they might as well be dying in a foreign country in a war based on lies and without the proper materiel support of the civilian leaders who sent them there? One would think you don't care about the troops, petey boy, the way you're talking. Gosh, snark, reality has, once again, overtaken satire.

You're not going to win in either FL-16 nor TX-22. Even with all the negative press for those two failed ex-Congressmen. Your candidates are losing. Signs will be up in Florida, and a write in will win the Texas seat. My how powerful the Democratic message is this year. My how powerful the netroots are, can't get Lamont elected.

Call us failed and incompetent. Look whose losing. Looks whose already laying the premise of why they lost. I vote for winners, I voted for winners, each and every race. Fair and square ballot counted winners.

I vote for winners, I voted for winners, each and every race. Fair and square ballot counted winners.

And still not one of the popular kids!

High School can be so cruel.

delusional is what you are peter..

Yes, shaking Americans confidence in the vote isn't right. But that's what paperless touch screen voting technology is doing.

That's why Congressional Republicans should have been willing to agree with Democrats and support reasonable expert-based reforms of the new touch screen technology to mandate a verifiable paper trail.

But Republicans, for some gosh darn reason, oppose it. And so legislation fixing the problem has languished in the Republican Congress since the last failed national election of 2004.

peter: your party is a cancer upon our democracy. There is no hope of progress for America in any way, shape of form as long as "conservative" Republicans hold power in Washington DC. None.

Until independents realize en masse that a vote for a Republican is a vote for continuing abject failure and national decline, there is no hope.

peter, I went on one 3 week training mission alone in 1990 and 11 people we're killed. A chopper crash and a couple of traffic accidents at night. Shit happens.
It's a lot worse when your situated as an occupying force or being used as a police force in a foreign land!
A small majority of soldier's are trained for an occupation or police activities. Most are ready to get the fuck out when the "mission is accomplished"!

SOS, ya seventied it again! Twice this week. You going for a record or something?

VOTE PRO-VETERAN PAGE -- See the latest figures from the DAV (Disabled American Veterans) on which lawmakers support veterans' issues.

The country is overwhelmed with failure and disaster everywhere one looks and juvenile twits like peter are posting "I vote for winners, I voted for winners, each and every race".

Yep, that's what really matters in a democracy, you appalling git, that the people you vote for "win".

phidipides painstakingly catalogues the actual policy failures you ass clowns are responsible for, the sense in which your movement is a complete unmitigated empirical FAILURE, and you respond by saying you vote for "winners" and thus are a "winner", I guess.

I has been laboring under the delusion you were an adult.

Great link, SOS. I notice a lot of them "winners" are rather low scorers.

Your friends at election projection "The Blogging Caesar" are already seeing the trend in my direction. You've already lost the senate according to him. The house is at 219-216. How soon till the house slips away?

I notice a lot of them "winners" are rather low scorers.

Or no scorers!

Good to see my state's got a very high score all around. I'm hoping to see Reichert knocked down next week, but even he had a higher score than most of the other 'pukes. You'd have to in this military-rich state.

You've already lost the senate according to him.

Only a true mental midget could interpret a likely pick-up of 4 Senate seats as a loss.

You really are the stupidest troll that's ever posted here peter.

so stupid that i am in favor of ignoring him..it's a little silly..more then a little

Your goal was to take back the Congress. Your failing in half that goal. Soon you will be failing totally. How many of those newly elected Democratic House members start voting with the GOP? How many conservative Democrats did Rahm Emanuel recruit? More DINO's on board! Huray we have a victory for failing to retake Congress!!!!

Loserville, what did you call Joe, Loserman. A bunch of losermen here.

And so it devolves into petey jumping up and down screaming "I AM TOO A WINNER! IT'S YOU GUYS ARE THE LOSERS!" Yawn. Way to kill a thread, ya loser.

I can only speak for Arizona, but if YOU call the Dem headquarters and ask who the dems are on the nonpartisan side of the ballot, they will tell you with the caveat that by law they cannot endorse them. Here goes, 7, I look forward to playing chess with Duckman in Guantanamo.

Justice of the Supreme Court of Az:
1. Hurwitz, Andrew

Judges of the Court of Appeals, Div 1, of Az:
1. Kessler, Donn
2. Norris, Patricia K.

Judges of the Superior Court:
1. Budoff, Robert A.
2. Downie, Margaret H.
3. Foster, George H., Jr.
4. Heilman, Joseph B.
5. Lee, Raymond P.
6. Rea, John Christian
7. Ronan, Emmet J.
8. Swann, Peter B.
9. Talamante, David Michael
10. Portley(not on my 5th district mail in ballot)

Central Az Water Conservation District:
1. Barrious, Frank M.
2. Brooks, George B., Jr.
3. George, Sam

If anyone finds any mistakes on this list, which I got strait from the donkeys mouth, please let me know. (trolls excluded)

Your goal was to take back the Congress.

peter, The goal was to take back the House and as many seats as possible in the Senate. We always knew the Senate was a long shot this year.
The 2008 election, however, will be the one that will drive the stake through the heart of the Republi-cons. Check out how many seats are vulnerable and you will realize the full majority and the Presidency will be Democratic. Better get on the bandwagon now or you will be voting for losers.
h/t to Mimikatz from the Next Hurrah.

TIKI, I thank you and my wife thanks you. She can now pass this around at her Union shop and they can pass this on to their families.

Call us failed and incompetent.

And you are. So what if you win? 2 more years tacked on the 12 years of failure in Congress and 6 years of a failed presidency. It would be one of those odd circumstances where the more you win the more we all lose. Precious, huh?

Conservatism fails. Period.

njh, gr, f y r cllng t ths thrd s rthr pltclly pwrfl.

phd, y r rppng; tht's C tlk fr slcng wv prfctly. Rlly sm mprssv thnkng.

7, thght drng th Rgn yrs tht th Rpblcns wld dsppr; wll, y knw th hstry. Hr's wht kps th Rds lv: mrlty. Y knw, ll th s-clld Chrstn stff. Tht's why kp syng tht, mng thr thngs, t ws th gy mrrg crp tht pt lttl Bsh n th Wht Hs.

t dsn't mttr whr n stnds n th gy mrrg ss, y hv t gr tht, cntrllng fr vtng mchn chtng, f gy mrrg ws nt rnd whn Bsh ws stmpng th frst tm, h wld nt b n DC nw.

Thrfr, f th dms wld smply fc smwht mdfd pltfrm t th ntnl lvl tht shws sm rflctn f th bv, thn d blv tht, f ll thr scl tms rmn th sm, th Rpbs wld ls mr ftn. Hwvr, wtht mrlty pltfrm, th Rds wll cntn t wn smply bcs f th mrl nmbrs nvlvd. Th dms mst pnch th nmbrs, r sffr cntnl lsss n th lng trm, vn f w wn fw sts nxt wk.

scout, it's called the separation of church and state. If we taxed the church's that become involved in politics, we will every election, everytime. Simple!

However, without a morality platform,

Scout, I'm not sure we need a well-defined morality platform when the republi-cons and conservatives have shown they are the most immoral group of people on the earth. Look at the posts of peter and manapp. At their core is immorality in it's most base and hideous form.

I think our morality is in what we stand for. The well-being of the country, concern for the Constitution, concern for the individual over concern for corporations. My goodness, we are screaming at the top of our lungs to stop the insanity that is killing our troops needlessly. And they reply that these deaths are nothing more than commas and statistics, the deaths aren't real people at all. If these aren't dichotomies of morality between the parties, nothing can ever be a real moral difference that would suffice to explain our moral differences.

And to add to phid's, "dichotomies of morality between the parties": Everytime someone does speak out; like Cindy Sheehan, she lost a son in Iraq for Christ sake, they swiftboat her; Michael J. Fox, disabled with Parkinson's, Rush calls him a faker and imitates him; Ann Coulter, and her fucked up rhetoric about the 9/11 widows! They are the most sick and twisted group ever.
And the media plays right along with them. Some in the media are finally catching on and realize who the SOB's and liars really are!
Hopefully, it's not too late!

even if we win a few seats next week.

What I don't get is the continued attempts to identify with the dems, when clearly scout is a far-right extremist. A quick perusal of his most recent comments will bear that out.

For one thing, though the evangelicals tried to make the last election a win for "values" voters, that theory didn't pan out in the final analysis - the voters were more enamoured with Bush's false sense of security and "steadfast resolve." Which is why Rove thought he could run on Iraq and 9/11 one last time. The near total abandonment of the red flag social issues this election cycle pretty much confirms it. So dems moving toward "morality" by jettisonning gay rights is a non-starter in my book.

I believe the turd has overwhelmed the blossom.

Ooooh, SOS. I can name that troll in four talking points! Whaddaya think?

I think you can coyote, easy!

So dems moving toward "morality" by jettisonning gay rights is a non-starter in my book.

And it's fortunate that dems don't have to jettison gay rights. The voters on the right seem to be jettisoning the anti-gay agenda. Santorum is the single most anti-gay republi-con around and he is about to get dumped by voters. Maybe the prebupli-cons should have confronted more pressing issues? Certainly seems the voters might think so.

this new troll is astonishing. remember, the bigger our margins, the harder it is to steal. i had a call for change party this weekend, calling sherwood (the mistress strangler)'s district in PA. most popular answer to "what's the biggest issue?" question: "To get rid of Don Sherwood" !

Call for Change!

phd, y r crrct. Bt lk t mrlty s mrkt plc. Wht th dms hv, mllns dn't by; nd ths sm blv th Rd lrs, nd lk th thr wy whn yr pnts f trcts r nvkd. Why nt ply smrt nd nt stpd, n trms f tryng t fgr t hw th dms cn ctlly wn lng ngh t mk dffrnc, f tht s pssbl.

7, t th vrydy cmmn sns lvl, w r lvng wthn th dmn f th rlgn f hmnsm. Thr s n sch thng s sprtn f chrch nd stt. Ths s crp dcptn nly md t dstryng tr Chrstnty.

Nw, f hypcrt Chrstns rplc th rlgn f hmnsm, w hv nw prblm, t b sr. My gss s tht thngs wll g n jst s w mgn nrmlcy t b fr th nxt fw yrs.

Cyt, m rgstrd dm, nd 'm nt lyng. f wsn't, wldn't b hr, trst m, s wldn't wst my tm.

Anjha, thank you so much for your postings of people to contact about voter fraud. I am passing that information along to others on Saturday.

For some reason, the trolls here seem to think that voter fraud is a problem in St. Louis. Let me repeat, it is not a problem, and certainly no more than any other large city. For those who are too dumb to know the region of St. Louis, East St. Louis is in Illinois, not Missouri. There has been voter fraud there for decades.

scout, you can register dem until the cows come home, it still doesn't make a gay-baiting, woman-hating, aids-debating, conspiracy-theory inflating, theocracy-reinstating zealot like you a democrat.

The sad fact is, you just don't know who you really are. Embrace the extremist within, stop lying to yourself. You'll feel better for it.

In the little conservative town I live in, the editorials written by Republicans to the small local paper are all just about the same, IE I used to be a proud Republican but we either have to vote Democrat or stay home. The Republicans I know here are not of the neocon mindset, they are absolutely disgusted with this president, the war, out of control spending, ect. I think we are heading to a huge shift here, whatever the trolls might think.

cyt, dn't gt ll sd n m. Y'r smwht crrct bt th thlgy stff; bt ttlly wrng vrywhr ls, s sl. Dn't y vr sht yr cmptr dwn? Y'r nt nly th lt Qn f trlls, bt hplssly mnprsnt.

You're not only the elite Queen of trolls,

(Said like a pirate): Arrrggghh, me pirate troll Queenie! Whar be we goin fer the boooty?

Just thought I would pop-in and break the century mark. Sorry.

Don't you ever shut your computer down?

We don't have lights out out here like you do on the inside scout.

Damn you librul Hollywood Brokeback faggot!

Who's sad, 'cept you, scout? As every geek knows, you never shut down the 'puter, or you'll fry the tubes.

Arrrr, p-dippy, I be searchin' for the scaliwag what turned us over to the hundreds! A hit and runner, I hear tell!

TIKI,

It used to be KP-K4, now I guess it would be 1.e4!

Thanks for doing that list, I hear the weather is very nice in Cuba in the spring!

A hit and runner, I hear tell!

ArrrRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Damn you librul Hollywood Brokeback faggot!

Arrrrr...Shiver me blow hole, matie! Heave to and put yer back in it! We be sailin with our Queenie troll fer treasure!

Aye, she'll be tied up bare breasted to the bowsprit, with that wicked red mane blowing in the wind! Just to keep you from her boooty!

Yeah, no one'll be gettin' my booty today, sailor!

Where were all you freaks on International Talk Like A Pirate Day?

Sheesh!

I'm a closet pirate, snark.

snark apparently doesn't understand the concept of rebellion. What fun is talking like a pirate ON "talking like a pirate day?" Sheesh!

Argggh!

May a horde a' termites take a likin' to yer peg!

Bah! That there's a cold curse, matey.

Duckman: What makes you think "they" will wait till spring to lock us up? Will we get a complimentary copy of the Koran?

Just hopin!